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Old 03-03-2013, 17:15   #2221
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Bob, maybe you can use your Balqon store credit to buy one of their 12V batteries, for future use. The newer LYP cells seem to have terrific internal resistance values.

I can't say I'm too surprised at the high probability of bankruptcy. Your order had red flags galore: no response to emails, took over three months, then you got old cells to boot. The $280 refund was damage control---a good will attempt to try to mitigate some of the negative Web publicity you generated while you were in Balqon purgatory.

It must have worked, because despite all those red flags, I still placed my order. Here are all the red flags I encountered with mine: no reply to any of my pre-order emails, credit card immediately charged $760 by PayPal, PayPal shipping address ignored, didn't reply to post-order email for ten days, took over two weeks to finally ship, had to pay for UPS separately with credit card, even had to pay UPS to pick up my shipment at Balqon, shipment had no hazmat labels, arrived without bolts/straps, cells were over two years old, cell internal resistance was five times more than expected, no cell-specific documentation included, and no documentation of any warranty was provided. Is that really any way to run a business?

All that said, I am satisfied with the cells' present performance. If they last just three more years, I will consider them a good investment---as they have both practical and educational value to me. In short, they are fun! I will be tickled pink if they last five more years, ecstatic if they last seven more.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:55   #2222
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Plug in the case number and year here Legal Reference System

and you will find "no results". Like I said this war has been going on for a couple of years and Sinopoly has been slinging mud better than any US politician. If you can link me to a China court website that shows what Sinopoly's press release alleges I would concede this point, but like I said, anything put out by Sinopoly about Winston is suspect.

When I plug "No. 4005 of 2012 of the High Court of The Hong Kong Special Administrative Region" into a search engine, all I get is results generated by Sinopoly and results from The High Court of Hong Kong. When I go to the Court website and search for the above, again "no results".
Here you go right from the very link you posted Legal Reference System

Lloyd
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:02   #2223
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Here you go right from the very link you posted Legal Reference System

Lloyd
Yep, that doesn't look too good. Thanks for plugging in the right prefix.
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:24   #2224
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

At least Reuben Trane has got together with Balqon. Before he was using Odyssey AGM for his solar-diesel-electric hybrid power cat.
Balqon - Advanced Transportation Solution
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:34   #2225

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

diugo, look on the bright side. If they don't go bankrupt, by not supplying an express warranty Balqon is now legally obligated to a statutory one. Which is much more generous.

Unfortunately, all sorts of tech industries are littered with products that just didn't work out and vendors that evaporated. Some folks have better luck than others when they take a gamble on an unproven company.
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:51   #2226
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

So, the best option we have is ordering direct from China? I mean after they introduced the new versions or bankruptcy is behind us etc.

I'm not gonna hunt after old stock items etc. but I'm also not gonna pay Genasun prices. I find it weird that availability isn't more wide spread, assuming businesses want to make a profit
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Old 03-03-2013, 20:34   #2227
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Balqon seems to have raised its prices from $1.10/Ah to $1.25/Ah, so they're definitely not bankrupt yet! In the US, there are several other sources for LFPs.

For CALB cells, there's EV Source in Utah, and Evolve Electrics in Colorado. Both charging about $1.50/Ah.

For GBS cells, Evolve sells them for $1.55/Ah. Elite Power Solutions in Phoenix has them for the same price bound in 4-cell packs.

Evolve also sells Sinopoly, now on sale from $1.18-1.35/Ah.

EV Propulsion in New York sells CALB and GBS, and despite higher cell prices may be more economical for East coast shipping.
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Old 03-03-2013, 21:51   #2228
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

Here is a thought to ponder re insurance. Would fitting LIFEPO4 be an authorised modification or would it give the insurance company a way out if a fire occured on your boat??
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Old 03-03-2013, 22:03   #2229
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

OK folks, this is just me thinking out loud. Rueben Trane of Island Pilot Yacht and Balwinder Samra of Balqon might just be ahead of a future demand curve. The DSe power catamaran is powered by a pair of the efficient 75 hp Steyr diesels coupled to a pair of 7 KW electric motors that can push the lightweight cat at 7 kt electric only, and produce 10 KW of charging power for the propulsion bank. It has 6 KW of solar, and now that Rueben has teamed up with Balqon, a typical cruising scenario plays out like this. You arrive at your anchorage without burning any diesel, hang out for a week exploring in your electric dinghy that gets recharged by the mother ship and in a week's time the propulsion bank is topped off for another 120 nm passage at a 4 kt long range electric cruising speed. Pretty much how most of us sailboat cruisers operate without the need of $15K worth of sails that need replacing on a regular basis. How many newbes do we get on this forum that want to cruise but have never sailed before? How many baby boomers want to do the same thing, and go the powerboat route only to find out 1 nm per gallon of ever increasing in price diesel has curtailed their cruising plans? I just hope both companies can hang in there for the future demand.
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Old 03-03-2013, 22:59   #2230
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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OK folks, this is just me thinking out loud. Rueben Trane of Island Pilot Yacht and Balwinder Samra of Balqon might just be ahead of a future demand curve. The DSe power catamaran is powered by a pair of the efficient 75 hp Steyr diesels coupled to a pair of 7 KW electric motors that can push the lightweight cat at 7 kt electric only, and produce 10 KW of charging power for the propulsion bank. It has 6 KW of solar, and now that Rueben has teamed up with Balqon, a typical cruising scenario plays out like this. You arrive at your anchorage without burning any diesel, hang out for a week exploring in your electric dinghy that gets recharged by the mother ship and in a week's time the propulsion bank is topped off for another 120 nm passage at a 4 kt long range electric cruising speed. Pretty much how most of us sailboat cruisers operate without the need of $15K worth of sails that need replacing on a regular basis. How many newbes do we get on this forum that want to cruise but have never sailed before? How many baby boomers want to do the same thing, and go the powerboat route only to find out 1 nm per gallon of ever increasing in price diesel has curtailed their cruising plans? I just hope both companies can hang in there for the future demand.
I'm guessing Balqon is caught up in a classic penny stock market shell game. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...TfVQKRXNTIqebw

After reading a couple of their 10K reports, I think they were on the right track, but connected to the wrong engine; Winston Chung, who seems better at finical puffing then at creating real valued companies.

Now the big issue is going to be the disconnect, and not get left on a side track.

Lloyd
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:39   #2231
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Here is a thought to ponder re insurance. Would fitting LIFEPO4 be an authorised modification or would it give the insurance company a way out if a fire occured on your boat??
Just who "authorises" anything in boats. ABYC is a recommendation and doesn't mention LI.

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Old 04-03-2013, 08:25   #2232

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

bill, your insurer might have to be incredibly smart, smarter than Boeing and the FAA and Nippon Air all combined, in order to prove that a battery fire happened, and then prove why it happened.

Just what does your clause on modifications say?
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:59   #2233

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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

diugo-
"Balqon seems to have raised its prices from $1.10/Ah to $1.25/Ah, so they're definitely not bankrupt yet!"
I think you've got that cart before the horse. If they can't PAY OUT money, if they can't DELIVER goods, they might be bankrupt. As in, if they can't put Bob's money back into his PayPal account.
But no one has suggested bankruptcy for Balqon, they are just a subsidiary of the larger companies. And if Balqon is asking people for MORE money, that doesn't indicate they are bankrupt, it just indicates they want more money. As most businesses do.
Not to cast any aspersion on anyone, but if I had commercial EVs coming into my shop, and I could pull out the cells and sell them as new, even if they were two years old...Yeah, that kind of thing has been known to happen, and we'd never know about it until well afterwards. All sorts of games in this world. And sometimes, just bad management practices or bad timing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:42   #2234
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bill, your insurer might have to be incredibly smart, smarter than Boeing and the FAA and Nippon Air all combined, in order to prove that a battery fire happened, and then prove why it happened.

Just what does your clause on modifications say?
They don't always have to prove anything.
There's a boat here that burnt.

Insurance first blamed owner refused to pay(for a couple years, it was in court), then decided it was heater that caused it... based on the heater manufacturer having deep pockets it seems like, since the fire started on the other end of the boat. They are quite happy to assume, then litigate to determine the 'truth'.

That being said, I still plan to go with lifepo when I can, the amount of abuse I've given my e bike battery would have destroyed a lead acid one.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:24   #2235
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Re: LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

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Not to cast any aspersion on anyone, but if I had commercial EVs coming into my shop, and I could pull out the cells and sell them as new, even if they were two years old...Yeah, that kind of thing has been known to happen, and we'd never know about it until well afterwards. All sorts of games in this world. And sometimes, just bad management practices or bad timing.
Hellosailor, that thought certainly crossed my mind, that Balqon could be selling used cells, or worse---warranty returns---as "the very best of quality" (the words they use to describe their clearance items).

So the first thing I did when my cells arrived, was look for any signs of previous ownership, like them being strapped---or squeezed in a vise! Fortunately, no such evidence was found. The terminals had clearly been used before, but I attributed that to normal charging and testing procedures.
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