Is Lithium Worth it?

[pkirkll]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

HOW many batteries do you require??? ---$7000.00 worth took my breath!
I love the new lithium or the carbon sponge thingy do dads--- but if you're comfy with gel then by all means use them.. enjoy the trip... i have not used batteries for sailing or water trips bit i have used them in outback western Australia and i will tell you one thing i liked was the ability to draw them way down without killing them.... plus the weight is unreal. ---We had to know we had power in the outback because to lose a cooler full of frozen meat would be devastating--- If you are already familiar with the gels , slap some more in and hit the roads-- or hit the breeze you sailors may say....

[exMaggieDrum]

I can't read the other replies for right now. Some will say the same thing I will say here.


The cost of the lithium batteries are one issue. The bigger, and more time consuming and may be expensive, issue is setting up your battery charger "system" for the lithium batteries. E.g. making sure you don't overcharge the batteries and over stressing/burning up the alternator(s). And it will take some work and time to understand the new paradigm of lithium cells.


It is all doable. You can, in theory, manually manage the charging. Some do. But you can't drop the ball on that even one time if it goes too far. Your wiring must be able to handle the much higher and much longer duration high amperage from the chargers. The batteries will keep on taking as much juice as you give them. Most boat wiring systems are not built for that. Yours may be already but you will have to make sure.


I put in lithium in my last boat and I loved them (as much as I used them before having to sell). I did upgrade my cables from the alternators. And put in a fall back BMS to prevent over charging and over discharging. Lithium aren't as forgiving for those.



Just finding cheaper cells will not be all you have to consider.

[CaptnBry]

��I think you answered your own Question.
If you have to hire someone to install it and get all the systems compatible, then changing to Lithium battery will complicate your bluewater dreams. "If you ca'nt fix it, and its critical, it shouldn't be onboard."- Hall Roth?
Electrons provide way too many important functions to be left to someone not onboard for the inevitable troubleshooting, tuning, and repairs, IMHO.
Stick with what works and what you know. Cruising is complicated enough, LoL !!

[carlwk3c]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

We replaced 3 Optima AGMs rated at 86AH with 3X 100AH Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries (~$1k each).
Given (86x3)x0.5=129AH of USABLE capacity (maximum without damage) for lead acid batteries, and almost all of the 300AH of capacity usable without damage for the lithium batteries, we nearly tripled our usable capacity in the same physical footprint at about 1/3 the weight.
And the lithium batteries will last at least 3X longer (probably more with good charge/discharge practices).
So, while lithium is more expensive in terms of the up front purchase price, the life cycle cost per Watt hour over the life of the batteries is actually less than lead acid, which you’d replace at least 3X before lithium’s would degrade, and you get the extra usable capacity for all those years.
Finally, lithium batteries have much higher charge acceptance than lead acid batteries. Charge acceptance tapers off pretty much exponentially in lead acid, so to truly get full charge takes a LONG time, and getting fully charged is key to preventing sulfation and getting longest possible life in lead acid batteries.
Lithium batteries take pretty much all the charge current you can give them right up to almost 100% fully charged, so charging is much faster. This cuts run time for your main engine or generator, saving a lot of fuel and wear and tear. (Yes, you will have to run your engine or generator sometimes to charge your batteries. Most of the time, our 700W of solar keeps us topped up each day, but today is overcast snd rainy, due to a tropical wave, and we’re expecting more of the same for the next several days, so the Honda 2k generator will get a bit of run time. Maybe 30-60 minutes per day until the sun comes back. The old AGMs would have required about 2 hours in the morning and another 2 hours before dark under the same conditions, because the last 20-30% takes so long.)
Yes, lithium is more than worth the initial investment, both economically, and in terms of the convenience and the creature comforts it enables compared to a lead acid bank if comparable physical size.

[CatNewBee]

The Question was Is Lithium worth it, and there is only one possible answer for a blue water cruiser.

YES! every single penny.

And it is a myth that it is 3 times the price of quality lead acid batteries.

my 1000Ah 12V battery cost 5000€ for the cells inclusive tax and shipping and theBMS another 500.

a spiral cell maintenance free AGM 75Ah costs 265€, and has a usable capacity of 35Ah at 0.1C, while my battery delivers far more than 1200Ah usable at this discharge rate, I would need 35 AGM for the same usable capacity, would cost me 9000€, and they have a life expectancy of 600 cycles, while my LFP has 5000 cycles.

One 75Ah battery weights 26.5kg, 35 would weight 927kg. My cells weight 42kg each, the Battery weights only 168kg.

It charges faster, has no problems to stay below full or be partly charged,
can deliver insane high currents and does not even blink on Voltage when abused heavily, is always stable above 13V.

I would never install lead acid in any vehicle for the house battery if you use it extendet time periods, lead acid is only acceptable as a small start battery or for casual use on vacations or weekend cruises.

There is no lead acid battery on the market that can even get any close to a LFP battery performance vise or life expectancy vise. There are magnitudes between this two technologies.

[Nicholson58]

We installed Firefly two years ago for live aboard. 450 AH at 24 volts. I had planned to go lithium but the complexity included reprogramming or replacing all charging equipment while living aboard in the Caribbean. Not a good idea. The retiring necessary as part of the BMS required space I didn’t have any also upped the cost. The FF batteries are AGM but give Li like performance-sort of. There are other advanced AGM technologies available now as well. The FF needed no charging system changes and held more juice than the old LifeLines.

[MILKMAN2580]

[if you are still in Cape Town look up lead crystal batteries they are made right there in SA . About the same as gel but Last longer
http://batteriesonline.co.za/category/blog/


QUOTE=rykie;3205298]I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan[/QUOTE]

[bpierce815]

Originally Posted by rmhutch59

We installed $16,000 dollars worth in an application 6 months later they were toast.

What broke the batteries? Did you have charging set incorrectly? Did the BMS not catch the issue?

[JDGreenlee]

Please refer to post "Explosions fires rescue at sea" for discussion of Li-ion battery safety issues.

[Amanda Gilbert]

After 8 years cruising on our 43’ mono, we have been stuck in Cape Town with the lockdown. Our 4-year old AGMs died in Madagascar and we struggled to find replacements. Got to Richards Bay and heard of a SA company making 310Ah lithium batteries with a five-year warranty and 7000 cycles at 70% DoD. They have built-in BMS, shunts, thermal protection, etc. Bought one and tried two different electricians who stuffed it completely: installation needs someone who really knows what they’re doing. Finally found the right person who’s based in Cape Town. We installed a Balmar regulator, Victron multi inverter and monitors, upgraded the alternator, and voila – we now have a brilliant onboard power system which is functional, easy to use and should last 10 years. We tried to fully discharge the battery, but lost our nerve and got down to 15%. The battery was fully charged within three hours with solar, wind and alternator. Every boat system is unique with different solar cells, wind gennies, electrical demands, etc so I wouldn’t presume to tell you what to do. However, these batteries are amazing – and being in SA means you don’t have to import the Victron, Mastervolt, Battle Born, etc. If you’d like more info please contact me privately. I think we’re going to be at the V&A for the next couple of months until the world starts to make more sense!

[Leyna]

Hi Ryan

Are you in Port Owen on Caribbean Soul? If so we have been cruising and living on our boat for two years. I can answer some of your questions as we have hands on cruising and ocean crossing experience. We are currently refitting our newly acquired catamaran in Port Owen. In short, simpler is better. Crossing Oceans is way different to sailing between the islands in the Caribbean. If a battery fails, can you replace it in an remote location? We chose gel simply because it can be installed on its side which worked for our crappy battery box, but found the best bang for buck is still 6 V Trojans. If I could fit them again I would have. I had 900Ah on my previous boat and never used them below 20%. A lithium bank would not outlast them. They are heavy and takes up a lot more space, if that is a consideration, lithium is way better. Don’t kill me for this comment, but lithium has not been proven to last for 10 years on a boat yet.

[ZSail]

We are in the second year of our conversion to Lithionics batteries from AGMs and despite the high initial cost we are solid converts. We are on a Hylas 56 and it is a pwer hungry boat. If I were not living aboard or planning long distance cruising, I might hesitate, but the system works well and all the advantage that were touted have come true for us. I picked the Lithionics due to what I judged to be a superior battery management control system. I have a 1100AH system in the form of two 550AH batteries and the BMS (battery control module). I have solar, wind and hydrogen charging sources. We used Ocean Planet Energy to design the system. I would urge anyone considering a system to speak with Bruce Schwab there as he sells both Lithionics and Firefly batteries. We were tempted by the Firefly batteries, but in the end went lithium. We had relatively new charging sources and did not have to invest in an entirely new charging system. In our system I am able to put just over 300 amps into the batteries to charge them. The constant voltage and easy monitoring are really great features. Lithioncs battery chemistry means that they will not "burn through" the aluminum battery housings, an issue frequently used by Lithium-deniers to slam their use. An issue that was possible with early systems, but very hard to imagine happening now. Finally, I just dont have the same level of worry about the batteries as I did with a 1200AH AGM bank and I love that I rarely if ever have to run the genst to charge them. Would not go back.

[saillr]

You have a big mono-hull, a working system, you are likely very busy with getting away organization stuff. Flooded lead acids are cheap, easy to get anywhere and easy to understand, and you can repair the system if necessary.
Why not wait until you get a few years under your belt. You will meet lots of people cruising and will get lots of ideas of your own.
Also Gel's will last a lot longer than 3 years if cared for but they are about twice the cost of FLA's. (or they were when I had Gel's) No real need for Gel's unless you have a positional problem. They don't need to be positioned horizontally.
FLA's will last for 5 yrs easily if cared for. Discharge no more than 50-60%. Charge to 80-85% they will last a very long time. In the meantime you will get lots of experience of other cruisers and be able to make the "worth it" decision on your own. Florida is not that far from the Carib so if you decide to go Lithium you could go there where there is lots of experience and likely competitive pricing.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by JDGreenlee

Please refer to post "Explosions fires rescue at sea" for discussion of Li-ion battery safety issues.

... and propane on board...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

The Question was Is Lithium worth it, and there is only one possible answer for a blue water cruiser.

YES! every single penny.

And it is a myth that it is 3 times the price of quality lead acid batteries.

my 1000Ah 12V battery cost 5000€ for the cells inclusive tax and shipping and theBMS another 500.

a spiral cell maintenance free AGM 75Ah costs 265€, and has a usable capacity of 35Ah at 0.1C, while my battery delivers far more than 1200Ah usable at this discharge rate, I would need 35 AGM for the same usable capacity, would cost me 9000€, and they have a life expectancy of 600 cycles, while my LFP has 5000 cycles.

One 75Ah battery weights 26.5kg, 35 would weight 927kg. My cells weight 42kg each, the Battery weights only 168kg.

It charges faster, has no problems to stay below full or be partly charged,
can deliver insane high currents and does not even blink on Voltage when abused heavily, is always stable above 13V.

I would never install lead acid in any vehicle for the house battery if you use it extendet time periods, lead acid is only acceptable as a small start battery or for casual use on vacations or weekend cruises.

There is no lead acid battery on the market that can even get any close to a LFP battery performance vise or life expectancy vise. There are magnitudes between this two technologies.

CatNewBee, I don't think any knowledgeable boater would deny the advantages of a fully developed Lithium based system with a large solar array and all the accoutrements. And for someone who wants or needs an all electric boat (excepting motors) there is probably no other way to go.

But it's way overkill for a 48 foot mono cruising boat which needs probably 200Ah per day. You are getting six times as much usable power as he needs.

I remember from previous conversations with you that you put something like $30,000 into your electrical system. Even a much smaller capacity system will probably cost him $3000 for batteries and there are other costs, plus the time to design the system, acquire it, and install it. He's looking at $5000 or so and a couple of months, probably to do it. Then he's to take off on a 5000 mile sail to the Caribbean? Even if he gets it for a total of $2000 that's still four ties the cost of a minimal FLA system which could provide 200ah per day.

Your comparison to AGM is not the whole picture, since there are much cheaper FLA's than AGM.

Look, if the OP has the available wealth and time and on-board needs to go the route that you did, great. But it might not be the correct answer for everyone else.