Is Lithium Worth it?

[Frode]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Just to clarify, lithium ion = bad and lithium iron phosphate = good.

Not correct. The term lithium-ion encompasses batteries made with cathodes consisting of lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, lithium cobalt oxide, and others.

Some Li-ion types are more prone to thermal runaway, which the LiFePO4 is not, and might need an active cooling system for additional safety.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Frode

Not correct. The term lithium-ion encompasses batteries made with cathodes consisting of lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, lithium cobalt oxide, and others.

Some Li-ion types are more prone to thermal runaway, which the LiFePO4 is not, and might need an active cooling system for additional safety.

[Pegasos]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.
...
The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than ...

Cheers
Ryan

Hi Ryan


You are probably correct that a Lithium set-up is cheaper in South Africa than anyplace you are likely to sail to. There is an outfit in Johannesburg that manufactures LiFePo4 batteries, and at least one of their models is specifically for marine use:
See www.freedomwon.co.za


I would contact them if I were in your situation.



Regards
Rob (Also in Cape Town)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by rykie

I'm currently prepping to leave Cape Town and have had to upgrade my solar / wind and lastly my battery bank.

My boat is currently severely underpowered with 6 x lead acid (104 a/h).
I have a 48ft monohull.

I've looked at lithium and all my power generators are programmable including my primus wind power - air 30's (x2) with a manual potentiometer (to a 13.7v output per the manual).

The cost difference is as you know 3x for the lithium equivalent up-front rather than gel.

I would need assistance in setups as I'm no pro and that of-course costs more.

My question is - Is lithium worth all of this extra when I can simply buy new gel batteries?

My family are not new sailors but we are all jumping in to start cruising and I'm hoping for the best.

The lithium set-up I'm assuming is still cheaper in South Africa than the Caribbean which is where we're heading and planning to stay for a while.

My gut feel says simply put in gel and upgrade to lithium when the time comes in 3 years and when I know we're all in it for the long haul.

This is based on me not wanting to fork out the $7000 to get the lithium equivalent.

Please can you give me your input and thoughts as to what you would do in my situation?

Cheers
Ryan

Certainly lithium batteries have a lot of advantages in terms of useful discharge capacities and high amp charging tolerance, and more advantages I guess.

My FLA batteries are pitiful in comparison and if I was about to embark on another circuit I would probably upgrade to Lithium. I'd love to have shorter charging times and less power use constraints.

But I'd somehow have to find the funds to do so. Most of my decisions are based on the upfront investment cost. $7000 would be a lot of money for me especially considering that my most recent battery replacement, after 7 years, was $500 USD for four 225AH golf cart batteries (Mexican manufacture). That gave me an exact replacement for the previous set, which worked acceptably while long term cruising, as have previous similar battery sets over the course of 25 years of world cruising. So, FLA work, passably, and are more economical.

I am sure that if you take intangible benefits into account the $7000 is worth it. The hard dollar return on investment is harder to prove.

Then there are other considerations. One thing I do not see directly addressed is the lack of functional monitoring of the BMS, DC/DC and other black boxes which are critical to these systems. Do we get LCD displays with status and error condition messages for every BMS or other device? So when something fails, as is possible, how easy is it to diagnose the problem?

We're talking about some pretty delicate (in some ways) batteries and very complex electronic and electrical systems to keep everything happy, but is it easy to understand?

Lets look at another aspect. Many of the success stories we read about are on pretty large catamarans with the square footage to support huge solar arrays which allow full electric galleys and myriads of other electricity hungry appliances. The massive battery capacity, which owners happily use, still has to be replaced on a daily basis. If not a big cat it requires a quite large monohull or on a normal sized vessel a radical installation which entirely changes the character of the boat from a sailboat to a solar farm. Otherwise I think you are you are reliant on generators.

So, it violates two principles of mine: Cost benefit and simplicity, in addition to being beyond my ability to fund and some level of impracticality on a vessel the size of my own. And besides, I like my boat to be a sailboat for which sailing capabilities are primary, simply not a platform for huge solar arrays needed to support a luxury, convenience laden, lifestyle that some seem to feel is needed to enjoy living on a sailboat.

[Saltyhog]

Originally Posted by Frode

Not correct. The term lithium-ion encompasses batteries made with cathodes consisting of lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, lithium cobalt oxide, and others.



Some Li-ion types are more prone to thermal runaway, which the LiFePO4 is not, and might need an active cooling system for additional safety.

Thank you. The above, incorrect, assertion is often stated here. It always bugs me. The only lithium cells that aren’t lithium-ion, are lithium metal cells, and are generally non-rechargeable primary batteries.

[AndyEss]

You might consider the health benefits of switching to LFP batteries. Your lower back, toes, fingers and greatly decreased chances of hernias should be part of evaluation of battery types. Let’s face it - lead is used for ballast in premium yachts for a reason - it’s very dense (heavy).
My battery box was in a very awkward spot in the engine compartment, but accessed through a lazarette locker. The contortions I had to go to just to get to the box before a twisted lift was part of my decision process.
The power equivalent in LFP batteries was about 25% of the weight (and volume) of lead plate batteries.
Many cruisers are of retirement age. The spine replacement market is poorly served at the current moment.

[Gerrycooper56]

Originally Posted by Pitchondesign

Ruixu battery has 220 ah 12v Lithiums for $1,100 usd. The internal cells are Synopoly. So, you could get 660 ah for $3,300. See https://www.ruixulithiumbattery.com/12v-lifepo4-battery

Not much difference in cost to a gel battery on a useable ah basis.

That’s based on US prices - they’re in South Africa I think.

[Soulseer]

Not wanting to get into the overall debate, as this still seems a very personal choice to me, but as an interim step - have you looked at the Firefly "Oasis" Batteries (Carbon Foam)? Evidently they have super-deep discharges, sulfation is not much of an issue and good life cycles. Niger Clader has even been testing them.

They would seem like a possible (less expensive) interim option.

https://oceanplanetenergy.com/advanc...asis-group-31/

[RickG]

We are very happy with out Firefly carbon foam AGMs with great PSOC and charge acceptance. We bought them in 2017. If we bought today I would give the Battleborn LiFePO4 batteries with a 10-year warranty a very close look.

Cheers, RickG

[mcon12000]

Can I suggest you apply the money towards upgrading the electrical system so its ready and modernized for lithium first?

Most likely you have plenty of items you can add and improve prior to the big change and all the improvements will be backwards compatible with AGM or Gel. Likely half of that $7K will get you modernized and to code. Not to mention what the process brings in knowledge of your boats electrical system. The batteries are only part of the story and the gels with your new ready for lithium system will perform quite well.

You can spend a fortune on a F1 engine but its useless without the rest of the car. Do it right and all you'll need to do is some light reprograming of charge profiles to drop them in.

[bluepearl54]

There is a potential insurance issue. Markel, who are the lead insurers on the “Jackline” program, does not currently insure boats with lithium battery systems. At the moment the Jackline program is the only insurance program providing global navigation endorsements for US registered boats. The problem occurs when a new insurer has to be found when one’s prior insurer leaves the market as, in my case, Pantaenius US did and non-renewed my policy. Any US registered boat older than 10 years , in the current insurance market, requires an insurance survey which will Include reporting of all mechanical/electrical/electronic systems.

I have Relion RB300 Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries with the appropriate battery management system. Lithium iron phosphate batteries are considered to be safe and, to the best of my knowledge, have no history of accidental malfunctions causing fire incidents or other damage.

I still hope to be able to convince Markel to insure Blue pearl..

[TxAgs]

I worked with Bruce Schwab to design a system for our boat. I can say that I have no issues with the system we installed, which has been running for 3 years continuously now. We did have a few "bugs" to work out early on such as upsizing cabling and tuning MPPTs to ensure they were charging correctly.
We have 800Ah @ 12v, 1300watts solar, 4 MPPTs (1 per panel), 2x 180amp Mark Grasser alternators, 1x 12/3000/120 Multiplus inverter/charger, and a 12/230v inverter for European devices. Removed the genset last summer to save weight. I'm as happy as I could be. Heck, on really hot days, I can run the air con for a few hours off of the batteries.

I ended up working with Bruce to install systems on a few other cruiser boats. The new Lithionics BMS is pretty slick.

[Nepidae]

There are different parameters with lithium batts 1 advantage is how far down you can drive them, but the COST to do that is HIGH.1 drawback may be storage space.

I have a 1200Ah batt bank of 6 6v L16 AGM batts with usable 600Ah, maybe a bit more and didn't pay $3k for them.

My CHARGING capabilities for the AGM are similar to wet cell so nothing special. I have a Xantrex SW3012 charger/inverter, 3 Xantrex Flex panels 220W ea, and Balmar 125A alternators.

My next addition will be a fuel cell (we don't have a built-in generator) so the fuel cell with an auto-start will be my generator. Watt in PA is releasing 1 which uses propane as the fuel source.

Good luck with your project.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Pitchondesign

Ruixu battery has 220 ah 12v Lithiums for $1,100 usd. The internal cells are Synopoly. So, you could get 660 ah for $3,300. See https://www.ruixulithiumbattery.com/12v-lifepo4-battery

Not much difference in cost to a gel battery on a useable ah basis.

Add one more factor. In gel batteries you aren’t suppose to use more than 30%. Lithium batteries you can conservatively use 60%. That’s double! They are also 25% lighter. I know several people that have done the conversion and not one thinks they made a mistake.

[thataway41]

I am into my 3rd year using LiFePo4 Battle Born batteries--mostly for cooking on induction burner, microwave, and running chest type refrigerator and freezer. I am 100% satisfied. Much less demand than you will have.

But you have to be sure you have good use monitoring and management--such Victron 700 series, chargers adequate to take advantage of the high acceptance rate, proper profile off engine alternators, solar and wind charger, as well as mains powered charger.

I would suggest that you contact the folks at the link for the "Freedom Won" battery group in S. Africa. Their marine batteries seem very good from the description--and they would be able to give you specific costs and advice for your unique situation.

I don't know about Carbon Foam in S. Africa, but that would be my second choice. As far as buying in the Caribbean, I suspect that the costs and availability would be not as desirable as what is available in S. Africa.