BMS warming light and buzzer before disconnect

[fxykty]

Our insurance company doesn’t care about our LFP installation other than to have documentation that we are operating it according to manufacturer specifications. So we sent them our design and configuration specifications that we created for our system.

We had an electrician working on some other stuff while we were in Queensland Australia and I asked if he does any lithium installs. He said ‘not anymore’ as the requirements are too onerous (one example was the requirement for ventilation - our 12V 700Ah battery would need a duct 250mm in diameter) and as the installing electrician he remains responsible for an indefinite amount of time and despite any changes made by the owner or subsequent owners.

So if you’re in Australia or NZ it pretty much means you can’t DIY an LFP system and get/keep comprehensive insurance. And very difficult finding someone to install it for you. Bummer.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by svmatilda

The requirement to monitor voltage and temp of each cell in the battery is going to need extensive work to retrofit and would almost need the batterys (several cells make a battery) to be fitted with sensors during manufacture. In the specs "The BMS shall continuously monitor the voltage and temperature of each cell in the battery" This is not going to be a simple SOC meter but going to need a specialised system with multipul sensors.

Then once you get over this hurdle then you may find the next is that change to a Lithium may not be certified for the vessel in question. You also will need certification of the install to be covered by insurance.

I have heard some have been knocked back on a claim if the system is not certified, putting in Lithiums is not really a job that should be done by an amature (a lot have i know) and I guess now those failures are starting to cut into the insurance companys bottom line.

"The BMS shall continuously monitor the voltage and temperature of each cell in the battery"

That is what every BMS already does. That specific requirement isn't anything special. (* some of the cheapest BMSs don't monitor temperature-but most do)

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by svmatilda

I have heard some have been knocked back on a claim if the system is not certified, putting in Lithiums is not really a job that should be done by an amature (a lot have i know) and I guess now those failures are starting to cut into the insurance companys bottom line.

I disagree, the insurance companies have seen the likes of electric scooter and bikes catch fire and branded the whole lithium battery industry as a risk.

The only way I see of changing this is to write to them explaining what compliance individuals are able to achieve. In particular "stating that the installation is in accordance with the manufacturers instructions". Then state that the need for a warning disconnect is only a recommendation by an American organisation that hasn't specified a time period or how it is to be achieved with drop in batteries.

Then request that the insurance company review the requirement in Oz. Hopefully a human will then be able to decide rather than someone who has been told to follow a script for anything lithium.

Pete

[sailingharry]

I have a different take on the whole insurance and lfp discussion.

I know that in some countries, I think Australia primarily, the mere existence of lfp can make you ineligible for insurance. That's a different matter entirely.

Most other places, the worst that is likely to happen is insurance will not cover a claim instigated by lfp. An overheated wire going to your windlass causing a fire will be covered. A dismasting will be covered. A sinking will be covered. But a fire caused by your lithium batteries igniting might not be covered.

In my book, lithium batteries causing a fire that will not be covered is a non-issue. If they are actually a fire risk, they won't go on my boat. But since they are not a fire risk, I have no problem putting them on my boat. And since I am confident that they will not detonate 200 miles offshore, I don't care that they're not insured.

As far as the ABYC recommendations for LFP. They are very good recommendations and I highly support them. But unlike many ABYC recommendations, like wire sizes or propane installations, these recommendations are almost exclusively about equipment reliability and lifespan. I'm not sure if I can identify a single requirement in the ABYC LFP standard that has any direct safety component. Arguably, the pre-alarm to keep you from suddenly losing all power is a safety element. But disconnects to keep you from running your battery flat or overcharging it, and monitoring the temperatures, and even the prohibition against mixing chemistries, are best practices that have little to do with safety.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by mstr_cmdr

As required by Pantaenius (Australia):

Please note that you are required to notify us if you have Lithium Batteries installed on your Vessel.

If your installation was completed by a Licenced Electrician and the installation meets AS/NZS 3004.2, / or Equivalent CE or ABYC standard. Pantaenius will note this on your policy file and there will be NO deduction in Cover applied to your policy associated with Lithium Batteries.

What we need!

We require a statement from a Licenced Electrician stating that they have inspected your battery installation and confirm that it meets or exceeds AS/NZS 3004.2.
The brand of the batteries must be noted on the statement.
The statement must be on the Electrician’s letter head which must display their License NO.

Hope this assists.

Thank you !

This is very interesting. They use a generic term "Lithium batteries", and does not specify what installed means.
So basically any boat under these requirements is probably without insurance in reality.

Also interesting how different it is from country to country. In my country Pantaneius does not mention Lithium batteries in any document, and neither does my own insurance company.
I bet that if I called them and asked, they would say "Get off the phone and go sailing".

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

I bet that if I called them and asked, they would say "Get off the phone and go sailing".

Yes, same in the UK for now, thankfully.

Pete

[Trimaran Ken]

Originally Posted by ben373

"2.9.3 Additional requirements for lithium ion batteries

I don't have a Lithium Ion battery. I have a LiFePO4 battery which is quite different.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Trimaran Ken

I don't have a Lithium Ion battery. I have a LiFePO4 battery which is quite different.

Unfortunately, while you and I know the difference, neither ABYC nor your insurance company understand that.

Although, I'm not sure that LFP isn't lithium ion. Isn't it just one of several lithium ion chemistries? This table lists six lithium ion chemistries, including LFP.
https://batteryuniversity.com/articl...of-lithium-ion

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Unfortunately, while you and I know the difference, neither ABYC nor your insurance company understand that.

Although, I'm not sure that LFP isn't lithium ion. Isn't it just one of several lithium ion chemistries? This table lists six lithium ion chemistries, including LFP.
https://batteryuniversity.com/articl...of-lithium-ion

Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is in the Lithium-Ion family of batteries. And ABYC does know the difference between LFP and other Lithium-Ion chemistries and has written of the safety of LFP and how difficult it is to get LFP to become a hazard. They just failed to include that information in E-13. (Doh!)

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is in the Lithium-Ion family of batteries. And ABYC does know the difference between LFP and other Lithium-Ion chemistries and has written of the safety of LFP and how difficult it is to get LFP to become a hazard. They just failed to include that information in E-13. (Doh!)

You are of course 100% correct about ABYC, and my post was cynical. [emoji849] Justifiably so, but still cynical.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

You are of course 100% correct about ABYC, and my post was cynical. [emoji849] Justifiably so, but still cynical.

Plus only an advisory board and have yet to come up with the evidence to support their reasoning for statements like not allowing hybrid banks.

Thankfully they are a world away from me, so I can choose to follow their advice or not.

Pete

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Plus only an advisory board and have yet to come up with the evidence to support their reasoning for statements like not allowing hybrid banks.



Thankfully they are a world away from me, so I can choose to follow their advice or not.



Pete

Unfortunately, here in the US they have the effect of law. Unless you are one of those that choose to self-insure (not necessarily a bad choice), an insurance company will require a survey, and a large number of surveyors focus primarily on ABYC compliance (as opposed to material condition of the vessel). It is much easier to cherry pick 30 or 40 common ABYC violations and make a check sheet then it is to actually understand and inspect vessel condition.

As an example, my prior boat had welding cable battery cables. They were in excellent condition, and not in the bilge or anywhere near oil (two things that impact welding cable suitability). This was a finding that was cited as "must repair." However, the rotted chain plate knee on the forward starboard lower was not noted or reported (not a concern for me as I had already identified it before purchase). The insurance company required the cable to be replaced, but was not concerned about the rotted chain plate knee (that wasn't noted). As I recall, I never did replace the cable, but I did fix the rotted knee.

[Leakie Marine]

"Our insurance company doesn’t care about our LFP installation other than to have documentation that we are operating it according to manufacturer specifications. So we sent them our design and configuration specifications that we created for our system."

What insurance company are you using fxykty?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Leakie Marine

"Our insurance company doesn’t care about our LFP installation other than to have documentation that we are operating it according to manufacturer specifications. So we sent them our design and configuration specifications that we created for our system."

What insurance company are you using fxykty?

Our broker is Velos Insurance Services Ltd https://www.velosinsurance.co.uk/ and the policy is Global Yacht Cover effected through Alwen Hough Johnson Limited (who is a Lloyd’s broker) as a sub cover holder of Munich Re Risk Solutions Ireland with granted Binding Authority agreement on behalf of Great Lakes Insurance SE.

Bit of a mouthful, but I suppose that’s what happens when insurance is through a Lloyd’s broker.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Our insurance company doesn’t care about our LFP installation other than to have documentation that we are operating it according to manufacturer specifications. So we sent them our design and configuration specifications that we created for our system.

<Snip>

So if you’re in Australia or NZ it pretty much means you can’t DIY an LFP system and get/keep comprehensive insurance. And very difficult finding someone to install it for you. Bummer.

Contradictory comment