100AH lithium battery holds MORE power than 100AH lead acid??

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Is Rod Collins a recognised authority?



Plenty more here, read up

https://www.google.com/search?q=do+l...rp&bshm=rime/2


.

Yep, like the repeated but unsupported by actual evidence claims that lifepo4 catch on fire and they cost more than AGM

OK, I see documentation both ways. They catch fire and they don't catch fire. Obviously, in normal operation, they shouldn't. But, if something goes wrong, it appears that they sometimes do catch fire.

Someone posted that they won't burn if placed in a fire. That's irrelevant. The issue seems to be internal with runaway discharge. Ther have been many reports of electric vehicle batteries catching fire.

I see 100 AH lithium batteries on amazon.com for $250 or so and I would jump at the chance to upgrade my house bank at that price, but I still have a lot of safety and charging concerns.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by rwidman

charging concerns.

What concern?

[CrispyCringle]

I think some confusion is out there over the difference between lithium-ion (Li-ion) and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery chemistries.

Lithium-ion does not have the same safety advantages as lithium iron phosphate. Its high energy density has the disadvantage of causing the battery to be unstable. It heats up faster during charging as a lithium-ion battery can experience thermal runaway.

LiFePO4 is what is the state of the art right now for marine use. But I think the history with Li-ion has scared a lot of folks off because they may not know the difference. They just hear "Lithium" and they think "Oh, my friends phone caught on fire from the battery, not going to put it in my boat".

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CrispyCringle

I think some confusion is out there over the difference between lithium-ion (Li-ion) and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) battery chemistries.

Lithium-ion does not have the same safety advantages as lithium iron phosphate. Its high energy density has the disadvantage of causing the battery to be unstable. It heats up faster during charging as a lithium-ion battery can experience thermal runaway.

LiFePO4 is what is the state of the art right now for marine use. But I think the history with Li-ion has scared a lot of folks off because they may not know the difference. They just hear "Lithium" and they think "Oh, my friends phone caught on fire from the battery, not going to put it in my boat".

Adding to this comedy, how many lithium batteries are on their boat at the same time they are frightened of LiFePO4s? Lol.

Scary if you count it up.

You have to count phones, computers, other personal electronics, handheld VHF, tools, it’s all lithium batteries. Anything that recharges. Probably as much if not more than the amount in the house bank and all quite risky in comparison.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Baronkrak

What concern?

That my battery charger has no "lithium" setting, my alternator has no settings or adjustments at all and that when charging, any lithium batteries would be in parallel with the AGM starting battery.

[rwidman]

OK, shopping for 12 volt 100 ah lithium batteries, I see them from $200 to over $1,000 with the same specifications.

My life experience tells me that there is probably a difference, but I can't tell from the advertising or specifications.

[SailRN]

Originally Posted by Pete7

I think the assumption that a 100Ah LFP holds more energy than a 100Ah LA is nonsense.

Clearly a 100 A h Li battery holds more USEFUL energy than a 100 A h LA battery. Consider 50% discharge vs. 70% discharge.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Adding to this comedy, how many lithium batteries are on their boat at the same time they are frightened of LiFePO4s? Lol.

Scary if you count it up.

You have to count phones, computers, other personal electronics, handheld VHF, tools, it’s all lithium batteries. Anything that recharges. Probably as much if not more than the amount in the house bank and all quite risky in comparison.

Fully agree, even your EPIRB is Lithium....huge firedanger in your liferaft ...lol....

[CrispyCringle]

Originally Posted by rwidman

OK, shopping for 12 volt 100 ah lithium batteries, I see them from $200 to over $1,000 with the same specifications.

My life experience tells me that there is probably a difference, but I can't tell from the advertising or specifications.

There are differences in battery quality. Look up Will Prowse on YouTube. Pretty knowledgeable guy on batteries, and has reviews of various batteries. There are only a few manufacturers of the actual cells. Those cells are graded for quality. BMS systems vary in quality and capability. Battery manufacturers simply assemble the cell into a case and put either a proprietary, or purchased BMS on it. And lastly, some of the cheapies literally have rocks or wood spacers inside the battery case.

If you have basic knowledge of DC electrics, to build your own battery packs is vastly cheaper than purchasing retail. The knowledge is out there. Not hard.

[SailRN]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I can’t teach you guys this stuff. You’re going to have to get it on your own.

It makes perfect sense. You just don’t understand it.

first of all, it holds more energy not more power.

Second, just look at the simple little tiny equation ab amps ove. You posted it. It’s perfect. watts are the measure of energy.


If you can’t understand what I just wrote, you’re not going to understand the concept at all. Or the math. It’s not even hard math. It’s like basic multiplication. Over time.

A Watt is a unit of power, not energy. Power is the rate at which energy is delivered or used.


A Joule is a unit of energy. A Watt is 1 Joule (J) delivered over 1 second (s). A W h is a term canceling out the time unit, thereby becoming a klutzy representation of energy. A W h is 3600 J.


A W h battery rating indicates how much energy the battery is capable of storing. A 12 V, 100 A h battery is a 1200 W h battery, a 24 V 100 A h battery is a 2400 W h battery, i.e. it stores twice the energy of the 12 V battery.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by SailRN

A Watt is a unit of power, not energy. Power is the rate at which energy is delivered or used.


A Joule is a unit of energy. A Watt is 1 Joule (J) delivered over 1 second (s). A W h is a term canceling out the time unit, thereby becoming a klutzy representation of energy. A W h is 3600 J.


A W h battery rating indicates how much energy the battery is capable of storing. A 12 V, 100 A h battery is a 1200 W h battery, a 24 V 100 A h battery is a 2400 W h battery, i.e. it stores twice the energy of the 12 V battery.

No kidding.

We know that. Sometimes people don’t have a lot of time on their hands and do things quickly. We are also trying to keep it simple and not get too annoyingly technical (like you just did) so that people can just read this and follow very simply from an extremely simple equation that you don’t have to look at over time (unless you want to). Not everyone here has a math or physics background or cares to hash out minutiae. This isn’t a physics forum.

Either way it Doesn’t really change the premise of the thread:

More energy (kWh) is stored per AH in a lithium than a lead. That’s what I realized, that’s what I showed and that’s what reality is. Why? The 12 and 24 are not real/true voltages at the end of your post. They are battery classes.

We have been talking about it all wrong for decades since lead was it. Now, we should start using a different unit for stored energy. The kWh. It’s more accurate across battery chemistries

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CrispyCringle

There are differences in battery quality. Look up Will Prowse on YouTube. Pretty knowledgeable guy on batteries, and has reviews of various batteries. There are only a few manufacturers of the actual cells. Those cells are graded for quality. BMS systems vary in quality and capability. Battery manufacturers simply assemble the cell into a case and put either a proprietary, or purchased BMS on it. And lastly, some of the cheapies literally have rocks or wood spacers inside the battery case.

If you have basic knowledge of DC electrics, to build your own battery packs is vastly cheaper than purchasing retail. The knowledge is out there. Not hard.

Fact is the cheapeast LFP with good reviews like LiTime is far superior to an LA battery with the same WH.

[SailRN]

Originally Posted by Chotu

We know that.

Sure you do, and you still printed an error.

Originally Posted by StuM

(FWIW, I wouldn't put too much faith in advice from sources which can't even get the basic units right)

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by rwidman

.

. Ther have been many reports of electric vehicle batteries catching fire.

The bit you're not getting is that electric vehicle batteries that catch on fire are a different chemistry to Lifepo4 used in boat house banks

[wholybee]

Did you follow any of the links i posted? You can claim incorrect installation, wrong charge settings, or defective cells. But not 100V. Nor was there some other external source of heat. And those are but a few examples out there.

I agree much safer than lead. In every case i found the fire was able to be put out