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jsnielsen · 08-01-2018, 01:16

Hei!
My first post on this forum I have been viewing for an eternity

We are considering buying a classic schooner for liveaboard and later cruising around the world. A lot of questions arises and one of the harder is the question of anchoring and going to port, so:
To what extend is it possible to enter marinas and anchor sites around the world in a large (30-35m) sailing schooner? are there only one or two per country or do they come about every 100mile or so

BR

danielamartindm · 08-01-2018, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsnielsen

Hei!
My first post on this forum I have been viewing for an eternity

We are considering buying a classic schooner for liveaboard and later cruising around the world. A lot of questions arises and one of the harder is the question of anchoring and going to port, so:
To what extend is it possible to enter marinas and anchor sites around the world in a large (30-35m) sailing schooner? are there only one or two per country or do they come about every 100mile or so

BR

I'm assuming cost is not a factor for you. I fell in love with the schooner design watching "Adventures in Paradise" as a boy. A vessel of the type and size you're contemplating will be limited by length and draft to docking in larger cities, with deeper channels leading to them and all-bascule or high clearance bridges. Anchoring would afford more flexibility in locale. Every vessel is designed with a mission in mind. A 100-foot vessel would be great for live aboard and circumnavigation; but be aware that size and draft will limit your choice of destinations to more urban facilities, or anchoring offshore. It can be done. Best of luck, and fair winds.

2big2small · 08-01-2018, 02:05

You run the risk of always ending up in the industrial part of the port instead of the scenic marina. At anchor you will always be so far off the beach that you again won’t enjoy the view much and you’ll have to go quite the distance with the dinghy. We usualy just swim to the beach.

It would be interesting to understand your motivation better, to know why you want to sail in that vessel. I see only disadvantages:

- Maintanance and repair hell of a “classic”
- Too big to be registered as a private pleasure craft in most jurisdictions and probably needs commercial registration with all its extra rules and requirements
- Requires extra crew that you need to pay “commercial” wages as per the registration and jurisdiction, and that you need to manage, which might turn out to be quite a burden.
- and as mentioned above just too big and too much draft to nestle in the good spots, be it in port or at anchor.
- Also quite convoluted to board the dinghy compared to the open transoms of modern yachts.

Other than that a dream come through, yeah. But I’d go with a much smaller, modern boat when all is said and done, regardless of the money aspect. So I’m really curious about your motivation.

jsnielsen · 08-01-2018, 04:39

Thank you for your replies!

Motivation:
At the moment we have lived aboard a 50' ketch for five years, me, my wife and our two kids at one and three. It is getting a bit cramped, especially in the winters and hence we are considering a small second place ashore or a larger vessel. The larger vessel is the most fun

. When the kids get older we want to go cruising, hence the sailing boat.

The reason for a schooner: They are beautyful, the price is high, but not crazy high for a 1900 steel schooner (below 300k USD). They are quite simple and sails are small and manageable. And most important: The dolphin watching net!

Cost:
Cost is always a consideration, but if there's space enough aboard so we can anchor without any problem, we might be able to anchor twice as much although it costs the double in the harbour.

Maintenance:
Maintenance is another big question, but since it will be our home, it might be reasonable. It doesn't have to be yacht shape, more like fishingboat shape. That is the topic for my next post in the forums

Maybe it would be possible to apply for some funding for part of the maintenance -- there are a lot of government funded sailing vessels in Denmark

Dimensions
One of the schooners in mind is 100' including bowsprit and davits, but 74' hull length (which is small enough to be private) and 6' draft, which is the same as our ketch. Beam around 18'.
What are your thoughts on these dimensions?

Crew
It is a must that it can be sailed by two persons. That won't be at top speed, but in and out of harbor, setting a few sails and off we go. Otherwise it is a nogo.
In Denmark there is a tradition that crew pay a little for staying aboard (20-40usd a day), but with little or no experience.

2big2small · 08-01-2018, 05:42

It’s not too big in the sense that most marinas should have space for it and I expect two experienced people should be able to handle it. But I expect it could get very tricky when entering unknown harbors in a gale, especially at night. That’s already hair raising on much smaller boats and I can’t start to imagine all the ways it could go wrong with a boat as you describe.

In my opinion, in your situation of a family cruising, it’s best to be on a boat that either adult can easily singlehand, including docking. Sooner or later one of the adults is going to be sick or absent or otherwise incapacitated. You need to be able to do everything alone. Taking on a crew member without experience is just one more person to babysit.

I also believe you can find a modern boat that is much smaller and cheaper yet offers far better interior amenities and space than the schooner you’re looking at. We settled on a 2006 Beneteau Oceanis 50 for our family. I can singlehand it all the way. My wife can sail it alright including reefing and what not, and would anchor it too, it’s just docking she hasn’t mastered yet.

A boat like that would be much cheaper in acquisition, fuel, docking fees, maintenance and repair whilst probably giving you a much more comfortable and roomy interior too.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

2big2small · 08-01-2018, 06:10

(When I say singlehandling it’s also preferably without powered machinery. If the boat is set up, for example, so that a single person can’t hoist the sail with manpower only because the gaff is too heavy, then don’t get it IMHO.)

**boatman61** · 08-01-2018, 06:39

Most of the Scandanavian funded boats I have run into are running youth programs for part of the year.. this would not only cover expenses but also supply maintenance manpower..
Personally I see no problems with the size and your ambitions if you are both fit and capable.. as for anchoring etc.. theres plenty of boats that size and bigger doing this all around the Med and Caribbean..
Regarding 'Scenic Marinas'.. Where are they.. I've yet to see one that comes close to the view from an anchorage..

IdoraKeeper · 08-01-2018, 07:23

A good friend operates large yachts for a living... Moorage is the Bain of his existence. In his view it negates a larger measure of the reason to have a large yacht. The vessel is very capable but at the mercy of others whims... And a Target of financial exploitation.

MartinR · 08-01-2018, 07:35

It depends a little. If you are thinking of a wooden, gaff-rigged boat this size, maintenance costs are a big problem. I have been involved with an 86' LOD wooden Danish built schooner and you are looking at around minimum 100000$ a year. Even if you do most of the work yourself and have plenty of help.

I have skippered the boat for thousands of miles, and I really like her. Reasonable fast, seaworthy, strong. Not the nicest movement, as these were built for cargo, and with the ballast low now, the GM is too high.

As for sailing short handed, you can get away with two people and very hard work. For longer passages, 6 man is probably the minimum today, even if they once upon a time were sailed by 4. But sailors were beefier then.

Never had problems finding berths in harbour, often in the best places and for free:-) If you want to finance this by doing a youth program, costs will be higher, as the ship has to be kept in class. And it is tough going.

Most private ships this size I know are in slow decay, as the owners have no chance/money to keep up with the maintenance.

If you are rich, and can afford crew and maintenance, I would go for it, though. Love these boats. You can probably buy one in good condition for 150000$ today.

seasick · 08-01-2018, 09:35

I owned and operated the 34m topsail schooner Unicorn of St Helier for many years and raised our four kids onboard.

Yes, you often need to anchor further out but not very often and you can carry larger faster skiffs to mitigate this. Yes, we sometimes had to pay exhorbitant marina fees but more often than not we were either given free moorage or were paid to tie up because the Unicorn attracted huge numbers of tourist which benefited the marina-side restaurants etc.

We often carried a crew of young, paying sail trainees and or paying couples looking for sea time and training. Having a paying crew was not at all like chartering in that people paid to work and gain experience on board from the galley to the engine room. These crew members shared in the homeschooling duties with our own children. We more than covered our expenses by conducting “tallship” events nearly everywhere we sailed and we sailed tens of thousands of miles a year to really cool places and we were often welcomed with parades, formal dinners and crowds who wanted nothing more than to help us further the experience.

Unicorn is a riveted steel vessel built from surpluse, German submarine steel. Didn’t rust.

There is a fine line between prohitively expensive large yachts and super classic large vessels that can be used as static displays and sailtraining schools.

Having a shoreside vessel agent to keep the vessel employed was a must. Carrying cargo (tramping) helped a great deal.

When we wintered over it was usually in a tropical location where we could put the kids in shoreside school and have the vessel more or less to the immediate family.

Vessels this large shouldn’t be operated with less than four people when entering a confined area like a marina and although we usually sailed long distance with only one on deck, we always had nine others who could stumble on deck with a push of the all-hands-on-deck alarm.

To my knowledge there is no length limit that defines yacht status in the eyes of countries that document vessels.

alansmith · 08-01-2018, 12:17

Boatman, exactly how many boats did you run into? is there any pending litigation?
He he he

SV DestinyAscen · 08-01-2018, 12:28

If 2 adults and two toddlers feel cramped in a 50 footer... I don't think upgrading to 100ft will help. IMO you might benefit from getting to marinas faster and more often and have more land time.

AJ_n_Audrey · 08-01-2018, 13:43

jsnielsen,

I love schooners, and I think your plan is great if you can do it based on your personal situation and finances. None of the "modern" boats like beneteau's, etc are as beautiful as any schooner. A six foot draft is not an issue in most places (I have 5' 6" draft), and neither is the beam, I think. If you are willing to anchor out mostly, it sounds wonderful. I'd say go for it.