Wiring In Series (pro vs con)

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by thomm225

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You guys need to chill out on your detailed argument and get a life! Some folks are sort of reading your stuff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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I disagree. What your sailor exemplifies is a basic idiot. The kind we hear about all too often here: "I don't know anything about elektrisitie..." kinda crap.

If I had a dime for every time I have written "None of was born an electrician..."

They're idiots because they don't BOTHER to learn the basics, which $12 and Amazon will get a great boat electrical book for you.

Series or parallel is not the issue as much as it is people who refuse to learn, and get off their sorry backsides to do it instead of reading stuff on the internet that is way above their heads to begin with. This thread is a perfect example of fine material, in great detail, discussed by knowledgeable skippers who have differing points of view supported by facts.

The basic idiots wouldn't have a clue.

They wouldn't read anything complicated, either.

Electrical Systems 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html/topic,5977.0.html

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I stated long ago, my definition for that term is 800+ cycles at 50%. And that is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

A 12V Wally labeled deep cycle is deceptive, even fraudulent.

Gimme a break.

You pick some arbitrary numbers out of thin air to make up your personal definition and if everyone doesn't comply they're deceptive or fraudulent?

Just who do you think you are?

Earth to John, nobody gives a rat's hiney what your fictional definition is.

Any battery labelled "Deep Cycle" is designed and intended for deep cycling.

There are various models of various quality and real world life span in various voltages. It is that simple. I don't understand why you
are having so much trouble grasping this very basic principle.

You need to get a grasp on reality man.

You want to pick some arbritrary numbers for your personal bogus
definition of a bogus term? I DON'T CARE. But I won't acknowledge
or accept your definition, because it's just more bogus
BS you made up.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I know of no 12V battery sold through mass retail that meet any definition of true deep cycle, all "dual purpose" really starters. Sam's GC2 are known good, maybe close to the minimum but great value for money. Costco's just a bit less so, being Johnson Controls.

Here is a popular 12v battery that meets your definition of a deep cycle battery

https://www.varta-automotive.com/en-...gm/830-115-060

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Any battery labelled "Deep Cycle" is designed and intended for deep cycling.

Laughably false, and further evidence to me it's not worth paying attention to anything you might have to say.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

You pick some arbitrary numbers out of thin air to make up your personal definition and if everyone doesn't comply they're deceptive or fraudulent?

Not at all. Pick your own definition, just don't pretend the distinction itself is unimportant

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Laughably false, and further evidence to me it's not worth paying attention to anything you might have to say.


Not at all. Pick your own definition, just don't pretend the distinction itself is unimportant

What is the matter with you? There is distinction by your bogus definition.
There is simply various levels of quality. High quality at any cost may be important to some, where lower cost at lesser quality is important to others.

This really isn't hard.

But I acknowledge, if you haven't got it by now, you likely never will. It is your loss that you can't open your mind to any thought others may have that differ from the definitions you choose to make up.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

But I acknowledge, if you haven't got it by now, you likely never will. It is your loss that you can't open your mind to any thought others may have that differ from the definitions you choose to make up.

Back at you

[ramblinrod]

To anyone still following this thread.

Marine battery manufactures may make various battery models.

"Starting" batteries are designed to produce short duration high cranking amps for turning over cold engines with high compression.

"Deep Cycle" batteries are designed to handle longer and deeper discharges. The manufacturer may publish a number "(something) cycles" to indicate how many discharges to what depth a battery handled during their test conditions. This may or may not have anything to do with what one experiences in a real application.

"Dual Purpose" batteries are meant to serve both functions in one battery. These are usually best for a small vessel with only one battery.

Some may claim that battery retailers may place different labels on the same battery model. While this may be true of some "shady" operators, retailers with any integrity would never do this. Choose a well established retailer that has a good reputation for honest, reliable, customer service.

For standard FLA batteries, there are various degrees of quality and expected relative life span at various price points and in various voltages.

As with all product purchase decisions we make, weigh the pros and cons against your budget.

If you wish batteries to last as long as possible before replacement, be prepared to open your wallet up front.

If you wish to keep initial cost down, be prepared to replace your batteries more frequently.

For most, when weighing longevity against initial cost and life cycle cost, the decision is to go with less expensive (up front) batteries. These may actually be lower cost per cycle. ie, they will handle fewer deep discharges, but more discharges / $ than more expensive batteries.

Disregard the statements by others that less expensive batteries are not worthy of full-time cruisers or ocean crossers. Many a vessel has and will continue to circumnavigate the globe with inexpensive batteries.

Be aware that there are high and low quality models in every battery voltage available. When it comes to voltage, the lower the battery voltage is compared to the system voltage, the more batteries are required to be connected in series to achieve system voltage, and the greater the capacity loss if one battery fails because the entire series string needs to be disabled or modifications to the system made, so that the remaining batteries are not destroyed. For this reason, a single series string, such as 2 x 6 Vdc, 3 x 4 Vdc or 6 x 2 Vdc to achieve 12 Vdc system voltage, may not be a very good idea.

Same with battery design. Some batteries have deep reservoirs under the plates, that some claim are necessary to catch shed material to prevent shorts. Others claim, that most inexpensive marine battery designs rarely short, so this is a non-issue. Other batteries have deep reservoirs above the plates. There seems to be consensus that this is very important for a battery used in the marine environment.

Some have made up their own personal definitions about what an acceptable quality battery is, and suggest others never consider batteries below this imaginary, arbitrary line. Be aware that there is no magic performance line, where one battery model just above is "awesome" and one just below is "terrible". All there is are degrees of quality and hopefully, correlating longevity. Be aware that no matter how expensive the bank, it is possible for something to go wrong, and the entire bank to be killed and require replacement prematurely.

So after 20+ pages of pretty good info and some total nonsense...

In conclusion, there are few energy storage solutions more effective, more affordable, and more safe, than a house bank of 12 Vdc marine Deep Cycle FLA batteries in parallel.

[pacific_voyager]

Originally Posted by rwells36

Attachment 145016

Something like this? Would this maintain amp balance?

This is absolutely the wrong way to wire this bank. The pos and neg leads should come off opposite sides of the pack.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I disagree. What your sailor exemplifies is a basic idiot. The kind we hear about all too often here: "I don't know anything about elektrisitie..." kinda crap.

If I had a dime for every time I have written "None of was born an electrician..."

They're idiots because they don't BOTHER to learn the basics, which $12 and Amazon will get a great boat electrical book for you.

Series or parallel is not the issue as much as it is people who refuse to learn, and get off their sorry backsides to do it instead of reading stuff on the internet that is way above their heads to begin with. This thread is a perfect example of fine material, in great detail, discussed by knowledgeable skippers who have differing points of view supported by facts.

The basic idiots wouldn't have a clue.

They wouldn't read anything complicated, either.

Electrical Systems 101 <a href="http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html/topic,5977.0.html" target="_blank">Electrical Systems 101/topic,5977.0.html

Actually the idiots you describe are fine.

They just have different priorities than learning all there is to know about batteries in series or parallel

This thread is about folks whose world has deteriorated to such a degree that they want to argue only about wiring in series or parallel with batteries

Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone as far as monomania is concerned but it seems to be much more prevalent here

I'm thinking it's because folks (cruisers and some workers in their offices) are not getting enough outside stimulus

[ranger58sb]

Speaking of shorted cells... (didn't somebody?)...

Yesterday our 12V BCI Group 48 (H6) car battery crapped out. Installed 10/2/2013, working fine (apparently) as of 5/15/2017... shorted cell on the morning of 5/16/2017.

Excellent on-site fix by AAA: battery and systems testing (including alternator and starter), and battery replacement.

-Chris

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Actually the idiots you describe are fine.

They just have different priorities than learning all there is to know about batteries in series or parallel

This thread is about folks whose world has deteriorated to such a degree that they want to argue only about wiring in series or parallel with batteries

Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone as far as monomania is concerned but it seems to be much more prevalent here

I'm thinking it's because folks (cruisers and some workers in their offices) are not getting enough outside stimulus

Or passionate about helping boaters improve their electrical systems
and boating experience in general.

(I noticed that you have over 3000 posts beside your name. Hey Pot....

[barnakiel]

I think some monitor ideas are hugely blown out. Our monitor simply starts counting out from batt full. So my % out can be a bit off but my Amps out is always quite accurate, NO?

You are using some complex monitoring devices and getting lost in insignificant details. Unless you are a powerplant manager rather than a boater.

Charge to full now and then and the meter resets.

Our meter: Bogart Trimetric.

Cheers,
b.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Or passionate about helping boaters improve their electrical systems
and boating experience in general.

(I noticed that you have over 3000 posts beside your name. Hey Pot....

Yep, like I said I'm as guilty as many others of zeroing in on a certain subject. It's peculiar to tech/engineer types which I am/was/continue to be when not doing paperwork.

As far as helping other boaters with series and parallel, I'm thinking a few posts would convey that with a couple pictures showing series connections vs parallel. 341 posts could confuse more than help explain............

Parallel:

https://www.google.com/search?q=12+v...qCOgTJM--HUjM:

Series:

https://www.google.com/search?q=para...BtJB6owlpWEuM:

We actually had a battery problem come up this week. We found that 14 of 24 batteries in one of our smaller UPS Units were bad after it alarmed. This one a Liebert where the batteries were replaced in 2009. The cost will be over $2,000 to replace....

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I think some monitor ideas are hugely blown out. Our monitor simply starts counting out from batt full. So my % out can be a bit off but my Amps out is always quite accurate, NO?

You are using some complex monitoring devices and getting lost in insignificant details. Unless you are a powerplant manager rather than a boater.

Charge to full now and then and the meter resets.

Our meter: Bogart Trimetric.

Cheers,
b.

Agreed. We use the digital voltage reading on our 4 x 12 Vdc FLA house bank. That's all.

With just a little experience, and ensuring readings are taken when they represent true status.

I take the morning reading before the sun hits the solar panels with loads off, or if I wake up late, throw a towel over the panels and run the fridge compressor for 5 minutes (to remove residual charge voltage), and take the reading after off for 5 minutes (to recover from load induced voltage sag).

I take the evening reading just before sunset, after fridge has run for 5 minutes, and then been idle for 5 minutes.

One quickly learns how much charging (combination of engine alternator and solar for us) is required during the day to ensure batteries are near 100% (12.75 Vdc no load/no charge) by sunset.

Within about 2 weeks swinging on the hook, one learns to adjust overnight loads and/or daytime charging to suit conditions to keep bank above 12.20 Vdc all the time, and get up to 12.75 Vdc, by most sunsets.

If you find you can never get up to 12.75 Vdc by sunset, you need to reduce consumption or increase daytime charging by whatever means suits.

When with common practice batteries start consistently dropping below 12.00 Vdc overnight, where previously they were always above 12.20 Vdc under same conditions, time to replace the batteries.

When changes are made to the system (loads or charging) monitor voltages closely for a couple weeks and keep a log (phone notes or pencil and paper) to determine revised charge time duration.

That simple.

Or put in a battery monitor to do it for you (that you initially and maintenance calibrate properly) or it could actually be a detriment to just using voltage.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

As far as helping other boaters with series and parallel, I'm thinking a few posts would convey that with a couple pictures showing series connections vs parallel. 341 posts could confuse more than help explain............

Ahem, the OP requested...

"Also, what are the pros and cons of this approach?"

After this was answered the thread developed into a debate of differing opinions over the finer points.

So what?

For anyone who isn't interested, they don't have to follow. For those who are, they can.

I don't see a problem.

If you do, the answer is simple, don't follow, AND FOR GOD's SAKE DON'T POST. ;-)