Wire too big for Victron charge controller

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Senojev

Response to Wotname

I don’t want to extend the debate on to ferrule or not to ferrule but only to post my source of information on Victron recommendation which is as follows. Guy is the Victron Community Manager and Produces a number of the Victron Training videos...............”

Thanks Senojev for providing Guy's point of view. It interesting to note how different it is to that of Margreet Leeftink, the author of Victron's Wiring Unlimited document.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

Wow reminds me of the 70's when we used to strip ww2 stuff. Whipping wires is an old art...

Not only an art but one that has different disciples -

I note Jedi used half hitches around the loom whereas we (in Coms trade school over a half century ago) had to use overhand knots. Half hitches were certainly quicker and I was never convinced the overhand (thumb) knot was better even if the instructors were certain they were.

Moving into aviation, lacing went out the window and single ties using a clove hitch topped with a reef knot was considered normal. Again I never liked them and replaced the clove hitch/reef knot with a modified constrictor knot topped with a thumb knot. When using waxed twine, a quick pass of a hot air gun allowed the wax to melt enough to add a level security to each tie.

Cable zip ties be gone...

The existential question remains - white or black twine? Me - I use both but never mixed; clean areas get white, potential dirty areas get black.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Statistical

I never said Victron requires it. In many land jurisdictions a DC disconnect on the PV side is require for code compliance regardless of what Victron says or doesn't say. I thought it was clear but I updated it for clarity.

I fully admit there is no such requirement on a boat. That doesn't mean it is a good thing just it isn't required. Until recently ELCI/GFCI weren't required on boats either despite being used on land for 30+ years. They didn't only become a good thing when ABYC finally belatedly added those requirements they were always a good thing the ABYC requirements were just lacking.

"You can always just disconnect the panel connector."
Panel connectors should not be disconnected under load. This is why a PV side DC disconnect is standard mandatory equipment in most land jurisdictions.


Look I am not saying there is any legal requirement for you to put a PV side disconnect on your boat. I am saying the exact opposite that no such requirement exists (to my knowledge). The question is if that lack of a requirement is a good thing. If you were putting solar power on your off-grid cabin in most parts of the world it would require a PV side DC disconnect. Moving that cabin to be floating on water certainly doesn't reduce risk.

I only asked you to provide us with some citations that support your statements. You come with this response like if I state that you claim it is mandatory on boats etc. but I didn’t, those are all your words, I never wrote that.

But no citations to support your claims?

Also, hiding behind some code in some country without making a case as to why this would be good or not isn’t how I roll. You have to explain why the disconnect “should be” required. Technical insight, critical thinking.

I actually have disconnects because they are convenient. Not because they are needed.

I never wrote that the panel connectors should be disconnected under load; I wrote you can simply turn the solar charge function off with the Bluetooth app or a remote switch. That is the best way to take the load of the PV and Battery circuits. After that, you can unplug, take a wire out of a terminal etc. A disconnect is a convenience, not a necessity.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I only asked you to provide us with some citations that support your statements. You come with this response like if I state that you claim it is mandatory on boats etc. but I didn’t, those are all your words, I never wrote that.

But no citations to support your claims?

NEC 690.13

690.13Photovoltaic System Disconnecting Means.
Means shall be provided to disconnect the PV system from all wiring systems including power systems, energy storage systems, and utilization equipment and its associated premises wiring.

(A)Location. The PV system disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location. Where disconnecting means of systems above 30 V are readily accessible to unqualified persons, any enclosure door or hinged cover that exposes live parts when open shall be locked or require a tool to open.

Informational Note: PV systems installed in accordance with 690.12 address the concerns related to energized conductors entering a building.

(B)Marking. Each PV system disconnecting means shall plainly indicate whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position and be permanently marked “PV SYSTEM DISCONNECT” or equivalent. Additional markings shall be permitted based upon the specific system configuration. For PV system disconnecting means where the line and load terminals may be energized in the open position, the device shall be marked with the following words or equivalent:

WARNING
ELECTRIC SHOCK HAZARD
TERMINALS ON THE LINE AND LOAD SIDES
MAY BE ENERGIZED IN THE OPEN POSITION

The warning sign(s) or label(s) shall comply with 110.21(B).

(C)Maximum Number of Disconnects. Each PV system disconnecting means shall consist of not more than six switches or six sets of circuit breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, or in a group of separate enclosures. A single PV system disconnecting means shall be permitted for the combined ac output of one or more inverters or ac modules in an interactive system.

Informational Note: This requirement does not limit the number of PV systems connected to a service as permitted in 690.4(D). This requirement allows up to six disconnecting means to disconnect a single PV system. For PV systems where all power is converted through interactive inverters, a dedicated circuit breaker, in 705.12(B)(1), is an example of a single PV system disconnecting means.

(D)Ratings. The PV system disconnecting means shall have ratings sufficient for the maximum circuit current, available fault current, and voltage that is available at the terminals of the PV system disconnect.

(E)Type of Disconnect. The PV system disconnecting means shall simultaneously disconnect the PV system conductors that are not solidly grounded from all conductors of other wiring systems. The PV system disconnecting means or its remote operating device or the enclosure providing access to the disconnecting means shall be capable of being locked in accordance with 110.25. The PV system disconnecting means shall be one of the following:

(1)A manually operable switch or circuit breaker

(2)A connector meeting the requirements of 690.33(D)(1) or (D)(3)

(3)A pull-out switch with the required interrupting rating

(4)A remote‐controlled switch or circuit breaker that is operable locally and opens automatically when control power is interrupted

(5)A device listed or approved for the intended application

Informational Note: Circuit breakers marked “line” and “load” may not be suitable for backfeed or reverse current.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Statistical

NEC 690.13

Yes, clear.

This pertains to wiring entering a building that must be able to be de-energized. Reasons for this is that it can be de-energized during emergencies like a fire.

If you want to implement this on a boat, you need to construct a weatherproof housing with disconnect above deck, between the solar array and the cable gland where wiring enters the boat.

This is the reason that this requirement doesn’t exist for boats: the fire brigade will not enter the boat anyway

[nash_sailing]

I just checked this post again as I am once again confronted with the same issue - wiring 1 awg wire to a victron DC/DC charger that accepts a maximum of 6 gauge. Makes me wonder why the previous owners chose this battery placement…

Anyways - thank you all for your input, didn’t realize this was such a polarizing topic! I solved the problem by using a step-down connector for the negative wire, and stepping down the positive via the isolator switch. I attached a photo for posterity. And yes, the charger to battery run is fused - everything works great!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by nash_sailing

I just checked this post again as I am once again confronted with the same issue - wiring 1 awg wire to a victron DC/DC charger that accepts a maximum of 6 gauge. Makes me wonder why the previous owners chose this battery placement…

Anyways - thank you all for your input, didn’t realize this was such a polarizing topic! I solved the problem by using a step-down connector for the negative wire, and stepping down the positive via the isolator switch. I attached a photo for posterity. And yes, the charger to battery run is fused - everything works great!

So here the positive conductor was wired okay, but the step down in the negative conductor creates two unnecessary crimp connections. Here’s my critique on this install:

1. Mounted on flammable surface isn’t allowed.
2. No crimped ferrules used at the Victron terminals.
3. Step down terminal shouldn’t have been used. It is now a candidate for high resistance. Simply remove strands from the 1 AWG cable until it fits the Victron terminal and crimp those in a ferrule.

Also, the screw terminals at the Victron must be very tight (can’t tell from picture)

[freshalaska]

Someone probably already said this I ran into the same thing and have to say a poor design on Victron part. I’ve also Victron connections on their other products like battery monitor very poor. Come on Victron you can do better than that I know it.

[Zanshin]

I have to admit that I cut sufficient strands from the AWG oversize cable to fit into my Victron controller then solder the end. I figure that <1mm of smaller gauge isn't going to make any difference at all.

Here's my current (live) setup: https://vrm.victronenergy.com/instal...share/00b72ff4

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by freshalaska

Someone probably already said this I ran into the same thing and have to say a poor design on Victron part. I’ve also Victron connections on their other products like battery monitor very poor. Come on Victron you can do better than that I know it.

Yeah it is just poor form by Victron. Even if cutting a few strands doesn't matter if it janky for that to the 'solution'. The connection point should be sized to handle any reasonable AWG wire.

Icom recently refreshed their M510 as M510 "EVO" to no longer need a wireless bridge to use NMEA2000 (JFC what were they thinking) so if enough customers complain they might change it someday in a product refresh.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by freshalaska

Someone probably already said this I ran into the same thing and have to say a poor design on Victron part. I’ve also Victron connections on their other products like battery monitor very poor. Come on Victron you can do better than that I know it.

That’s a shunt with 3/8” bolts… what is so poor about that?

Originally Posted by Zanshin

I have to admit that I cut sufficient strands from the AWG oversize cable to fit into my Victron controller then solder the end. I figure that <1mm of smaller gauge isn't going to make any difference at all.

Here's my current (live) setup: https://vrm.victronenergy.com/instal...share/00b72ff4

The wire diameter is chosen for voltage drop over the distance of the circuit and it makes absolutely no difference to reduce diameter over the short distance of the terminal connection.
That said, a crimped ferrule would have been better than solder, which creates a hard spot and any vibration work-hardens the copper just beyond the solder which will lead to it cracking in the end. Of course securely fastening the wiring prevents that

[freshalaska]

I’m not talking about the Victron battery shunt but comm connections ports that have frequently fallin out, dislodged when installing the gauges themselves. I forget what they call these type of ports, but it’s not a very positive secure connection if it falls out. There is almost nothing in all my many electronic connections as poor as theses are. If you feel different fine but it doesn’t change my feelings.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by freshalaska

I’m not talking about the Victron battery shunt but comm connections ports that have frequently fallin out, dislodged when installing the gauges themselves. I forget what they call these type of ports, but it’s not a very positive secure connection if it falls out. There is almost nothing in all my many electronic connections as poor as theses are. If you feel different fine but it doesn’t change my feelings.

The display has an RJ-12 which does not fall out as it has a locking tab. Every old telephone had one of those.

[freshalaska]

I’m sorry to differ and yes it has fallen out a number of times, where you there to see it, I think not so don’t say it can’t happen. It’s happened on my color control and Victron battery monitor both. It’s seems solidly locked in but somehow falls out. I’m sure Victron can come up with something more positive then this even if it’s been used millions of times, time to improve like so many of Victron devices in general.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by freshalaska

I’m sorry to differ and yes it has fallen out a number of times, where you there to see it, I think not so don’t say it can’t happen. It’s happened on my color control and Victron battery monitor both. It’s seems solidly locked in but somehow falls out. I’m sure Victron can come up with something more positive then this even if it’s been used millions of times, time to improve like so many of Victron devices in general.

Well, no they won’t because RJ-12 is a proven connector type. If it falls out for you then it means it wasn’t fully inserted or somehow the connector is damaged so that the locking tab doesn’t function.

I have tested many to destruction: the cable will rip out the connector rather than the connector coming out. It is the same type of connector as for Ethernet and with the old telephones there were billions in use.