Once caught twice shy - be careful

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Thanks for the explanations - it is appreciated!

I remain confused about one aspect though - why would a winch not be covered?

A winch for the yacht would not be covered.


It seems to satisfy the first condition, namely
they purchase goods or services that cost less than $40,000.

.....the goods or services cost more than $40,000, but they are of a kind ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption.

A yacht winch would not pass the criteria "ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption". (Only nut cases buy yacht winches (they are not ordinarily acquired ) They can't be classified as "domestic", "household" or "personal" use

Things like bedding, furniture, TV, kitchen utensils, clothing, computer, iPhone, security systems, garden shed, wheel barrow, carpet, floor tiles are easy: they would be covered by ACL.

But what about a set of golf clubs, a surfboard a piano or musical instrument? That's where I'm not sure (There may be precedents where it has been decided one way or another)

Just occurred to me: what about a bicycle? If it was a competition bike - NO. If it was a normal road bike it would be covered.


Tonight's assignment
https://hwlebsworth.com.au/consumer-guarantees-for-goods-and-services-acquired-for-business-purposes-you-may-have-more-rights-than-you-realise/

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by coopec43

.....the goods or services cost more than $40,000, but they are of a kind ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption.

A yacht winch would not pass the criteria "ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption". (Only nut cases buy yacht winches (they are not ordinarily acquired ) They can't be classified as "domestic", "household" or "personal" use

Things like bedding, furniture, TV, kitchen utensils, clothing, computer, iPhone, security systems, garden shed, wheel barrow, carpet, floor tiles are easy: they would be covered by ACL.

But what about a set of golf clubs, a surfboard a piano or musical instrument? That's where I'm not sure (There may be precedents where it has been decided one way or another)

Just occurred to me: what about a bicycle? If it was a competition bike - NO. If it was a normal road bike it would be covered.



Tonight's assignment
https://hwlebsworth.com.au/consumer-guarantees-for-goods-and-services-acquired-for-business-purposes-you-may-have-more-rights-than-you-realise/

I haven't seen any yacht winch on the boats I normally frequent that cost more than $40,000.

Maybe you move in the mega yacht circles .

.....the goods or services cost more than $40,000, but they are of a kind ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I haven't seen any yacht winch on the boats I normally frequent that cost more than $40,000.

Maybe you move in the mega yacht circles .

.....the goods or services cost more than $40,000, but they are of a kind ordinarily acquired for domestic, household or personal use or consumption.

Wotname I taught Consumer Law in the 80/90s so I'm well out-of-date. Just looking now there are a lot of changes to the definition of Consumer over the years.(It is no longer $40,000 but $100,000 for example).


Right now apparently the definition of Consumer is:


Who is a consumer?
Consumer guarantees are only imposed by the ACL when goods or services are acquired by a 'consumer'.
As it stands under section 3 of the ACL, generally a good or service is taken to be acquired by a consumer if the:

• amount paid or payable is $40,000 or less; or
• goods or services were of a kind ordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption.

Businesses as well as individuals can be considered consumers in many cases. However, a person is generally not a 'consumer' if they acquire goods for re-supply or to be used up or transformed in trade or commerce in a production process.
Changes to who is a consumer
From 1 July 2021, the monetary threshold for the definition of 'consumer' will increase from $40,000 to $100,000, by way of the Treasury Laws Amendment (Acquisition as Consumer - Financial Thresholds) Regulations 2020 (Regulations). These changes were introduced following the recommendations of the Australian Consumer Law Review (ACLR).
The ACLR determined that inflation had diminished the level of protection afforded to consumers by the consumer guarantees.
It is important to note that technically, the definition of 'consumer' in relation to a supply of services is not currently covered by these changes. This is an oversight however as it was clearly intended that changes would apply to both goods and services. We expect that this will be corrected before the Regulations take effect from 1 July 2021


I can see your arguments regarding the winch. As the Act stand now it would be covered by the Consumer Law act.


But when I read



A person is still defined as a "consumer" if the good was acquired for purposes of re-supply or for the purpose of using or transforming it in trade or commerce. (Wiki)




I get confused. Maybe a plumber buying pipe for a job is considered a "consumer" but that conflicts with the definition above.



I've got better things to do these days than research Australian Consumer Law!

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by sloopguy

The fix for dodgy sellers is simple for me....my purchases using paypal run through my citibank credit card. If the item isn't received by the time the cc bill comes in I don't pay for that item. I also don't pay for the item if it is defective or is in any way not as advertised. I simply dispute the charge/refuse to pay. I try to buy only from sellers that pay to return ship the item. G.L.

Here is the correct answer, back on page 2! I also purchase through paypal, and pay with my citibank credit card. I've ordered several times times orders which show shipping from United States (I live in the United States) only to receive notices that they item is shipping from China. On or before the 44th day, I file a dispute with Citibank that item has not been received. They investigate, if item arrives after 45 days, if it is acceptable, and functioning properly, I cancel the dispute through Citibank. If not, the dispute was initiated prior to the drop dead date, and the dispute stands.



Note: When disputing DOA items, DO NOT select "item defective" as reason for return. Select "I still have not received the item I ordered"


Reason: whether or not an item is defective can be a judgement call, where as vendor agreed to ship working item, and I stand by the fact that I still have not received the item (working) that I ordered. Seems to smooth the way better. YMMV

[coopec43]

Commenting on Consumer Laws (which would vary from country to country anyway) is "Off topic" but since it has been raised you might like to read of the changes PayPal proposes to make to its "PayPal’s Buyer Protection and Seller Protection to be globally consistent" as of 12th March

https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...m_medium=email

[Bill Seal]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

Yes, off-topic and misleading...
- Flooded-cell batteries for power tools?
- Faulty Lithium-Ion batts can in rare events and after much abuse catch fire, LiFePO4 batteries are much less likely to do that. Not sure which one you were referring to...

There were 39 SCUBA divers off Santa Cruz island who might have argued about how rare fires were. All it took was one.

[Bill Seal]

Back on topic, I got scammed by an EBAY seller, after I bought it, the seller was de-listed, turned out the tracking number was false, (a different package was delivered tp another address.) Tried contacting EBAY, they no longer accept phone calls, all they had was a bunch of standard questions "contact the seller", I CAN'T DAMNIT, YOU KICKED THEM OFF. After much screaming at the computer, I finally found at the bottom of a page, a button marked "CHAT" I explained my problem, a nice lady came back to me on line, checked the item number, and got all my money back. The problem was how they hid the CHAT button, a third party help forum didn't even know about it.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

Back on topic, .................. The problem was how they hid the CHAT button, a third party help forum didn't even know about it.

I've had exactly the same experience. Tried to converse with a robot but got nowhere. Eventually found a person to speak to(well hidden) and had the problem fixed straight away

Hopefully now that Chinese sellers are not listed on eBay (Australia) I won't have a problem in future.

[CarinaPDX]

Just like Amazon. I never could find a chat button, but after going to UPS to complain of the apparent mis-delivery (UPS cannot do anything with Amazon problems) they gave me a link to an Amazon chat page. After a few Q&As with the robot a real human being came on and immediately credited me. Of course Amazon has no phone numbers available, even for the vendors. Just keep looking for a chat... Better yet, buy elsewhere from someone who knows what customer service is.

Greg

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by coopec43

............

I've got better things to do these days than research Australian Consumer Law!

Nevertheless, thanks for your research and I concur with your conclusion (above).

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Hopefully now that Chinese sellers are not listed on eBay (Australia) I won't have a problem in future.

They are listed on eBay and for me, they are the most reliable.

Dramas at the moment with an Australian seller who said they send with Australia post but used Fast way couriers instead and they won't deliver to a post office, never contacted me, lied to me several times and now its going back to the seller in Sydney

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Nevertheless, thanks for your research and I concur with your conclusion (above).

Wotname

This might interest you as it explains the best way to pay for a purchase on eBay. The only fact that surprised me was Debit Cards give protection in certain circumstances (I'm sure that hasn't always been the case but when I was teaching Consumer Law Debit Cards were non existent(?))

While researching I blundered onto a site explaining Consumer Law but then realized it was UK Consumer Law (but it looked quite similar to Australian Consumer law)

Here is the link and it explains the (Australian) law. (It's not completely straight forward!)

https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/consu...ard-chargeback

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

They are listed on eBay and for me, they are the most reliable.

Dramas at the moment with an Australian seller who said they send with Australia post but used Fast way couriers instead and they won't deliver to a post office, never contacted me, lied to me several times and now its going back to the seller in Sydney

Fastway is now Aramex and are worse than useless...they must be very cheap.
I've been caught more than once.... vendor says they are using Auspost or Sendle... next thing you know the goods are sitting 50kms away at the Aramex depot.

All other couriers can get stuff to my door..... but not them.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

They are listed on eBay and for me, they are the most reliable.

Dramas at the moment with an Australian seller who said they send with Australia post but used Fast way couriers instead and they won't deliver to a post office, never contacted me, lied to me several times and now its going back to the seller in Sydney

I've checked to see if I had inadvertently filtered out Chinese sellers but no success. How can you and I get different results?

I know Chinese sellers have been evading paying VAT and GST by using fake VAT number and I thought that may have had something to do with it.


"The price of Chinese products sold on Amazon and eBay has jumped after tougher tax rules came into force on January 1. ... The change was made amid growing concern that thousands of mainly Chinese sellers were evading the tax by using fake VAT numbers and shell companies to sell products in effect tax-free."Jan 6, 2021


Amazon prices rise as Chinese sellers’ VAT loophole is closed

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a...osed-j9wnplf0b


China eBay sellers not shipping to Australia?

https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/564350

I'm quite sure Chinese eBay sellers will rip us all off if they think they can get away with it.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I find buying on eBay is a tremendous saver both cost and time-wise but it is not without it's problems.

Recently I needed an 18V l ion rechargeable battery so I looked online and found a seller tenga9511 with an approval rating of 99.3 which I thought was pretty good.

I bought a battery and used it once but then it wouldn't take a charge. I lodged a complaint with the seller and was pleased when he said he had sent a replacement. I waited and waited and then contacted him again: he asked me to give it another week. When it didn't arrive I contacted him again but no reply...... eBay were no help so I contacted Paypal for help. Then tenga9511 offered me a $5 refund. When I didn't accept that about ten days later Paypal emailed me and said they couldn't help.

I then looked at the negative responses buyers had given tenga9511 and found he is passing off dodgy batteries. But neither eBay or Paypal could help......

Geeez!! I won't buy anything from Asia again - particularly electrical. AND eBay/Paypal have gone right down in my estimation

The moral is never buy from China (or other Asian eBay seller) because if you are ripped off you are on your own. (eBay and Paypal are as useless as ejector seats on a helicopter)

(I'd love to try Amazon but they are not strong in Australia)

I've bought hundreds of stuff off Ebay.. Paypal always covered any issues with the buyer protection..IF you notified them within their policy. I never wait. If an issues, I place them on notice.