Inverter/Charger issues & options

[jordanbigel]

I've been dealing with a messed up inverter/charger for the last few months which has driven me to near madness. I'd like to get feedback on the relative merits of three specific units - the one I have now, the one the repair tech says I should have, and the one I think I want to get instead.

Currently, I have a Xantrex SW2000 2kw/80amp (model: 815-2012) - installed it about 3 years ago and have nothing but problems, TWO breakdowns requiring new boards at high cost, and this thing is heavy and hard to remove and re-install, which I have now done 3 times over the last 3 years. And now it has s**t the bed again, and in a totally new way of course. Each time it has failed in a completely different way. The first time could have been caused by operator error - I accidentally started the engine without shutting off the charger. Ka-ching. The second time the repair tech said maybe bad power coming in, maybe I overloaded it (??) but he was not conclusive. Ka-Ching.

Now comes a new issue which seems to have been coming on for a few months - I've noticed the charger (always the charger by the way with this thing, never had a problem with the inverter side) - will just randomly reset. As in, it acts as if incoming AC was interrupted and then re-acquired, starting the 3-stage charging cycle again with Bulk. It used to be once or twice a week I noticed this, lately (last 3 weeks) I am noticing it several times a day.

I've taken to manually forcing the inverter back to Float mode when I notice this. Obviously a bad sign and I have been meaning to do something about it. But, I checked all the error and warning messages and there were none! I wasn't really sure if maybe it was a bad power connections on the dock causing incoming power to be lost randomly.

Now I am staring at the controls all day and I finally see a clue when this rest happens - on the control panel, sometimes when a decent sized DC load comes on (anything over 10amps for example) I see on the control panel the "Inverter On" light comes on for a second, then goes off, then whammo, Bulk mode. But the thing is I have the inverter "Disabled". I've tried sitting here staring at the control panel flipping on various DC loads (lights, blowers, heater, instruments - most are small loads but occasionally I turn on something like the heater (Espar) which draws about 15amps, or the reefer compressor comes on, that triggers it I think.

But, starting yesterday things have totally gone sideways - I noticed the charger was reading Bulk mode, but the battery was showing a net loss of 70amps, which was the amount of amps being used by the massive (circa 1999) 1 HP DC reefer compressor which was running. Normally when the compressor runs (and pulls about 70amps) the charger is able to put out the full 80amps it is capable of which balances the power usage of the compressor resulting in a net gain of a few amps, basically keeping the batteries at float while the compressor runs.

But now the charger won't put out more than about 22 amps no matter what. Bulk/Absorption all seem to be happening, but only 22 amps max is coming out of the charger, regardless of how much load is being drawn. Right now the charger is in Float mode, my batteries are at about 13.8 (Gell cells) and the charger is putting out about 14amps which accounts for all of the DC power we are using on board as I type this. So, everything LOOKS normal at this stage, until some DC load comes on and resets the charger again...

Last night I turned off the inverter/charger completely after dinner (cutoff switch, completely dead, no power going to the unit) - by morning we were down only about 30amps, mostly from using computers the night before -batteries are still around 13.0, and so I turn the charger back on, and from my experience, it should have gone to Bulk mode and started pouring in the amps and driving up the voltage to about 14.40 before switching to Absorption mode. But instead I get 22amps and about 5 or 10 minutes we get up to 14.4 and sure enough, switch to Absorption, but still only 22 amps.

There are now errors on the display under Fault Log - "Transformer temp unreadable" and "FET1 Over Temperature" - sounds to me like something burned out. Of course I felt the unit on several sides and it's cool as a cucumber. And I don't care what the repair tech says is wrong with it, no way am I putting more money into this POS.

SO, after the last repair, the tech told me that he thinks I may be pushing the unit too hard and that I really need the SW3000 (3kw/120amp) - and then I realized the unit I bought 3 years ago does not include support for Lithium charging, and I am planning to upgrade to Lithium batteries this coming summer, so, I was thinking I would just upgrade to the SW3000 and sell the SW2000 for cheap and recoup a few bucks maybe.

But now I am so disappointed in this thing I can't see spending more money on another Xantrex product and I am leaning towards the Victron Multi 3000.

Of course everyone raves about everything Victron makes, and I can only assume it is all true, but, the same Xantrex repair tech was very clear when I asked him about the relative advantages of each unit and he basically said the Victron was lightly built, capable of light service, and would not last long. He (somewhat tritely I thought) said it boiled down to weight and that the Xantrex is heavy because of the huge mass of coils/metal/whatnot inside the box which by nature is a longer lasting, more robust design.

To me, that seems logical on the surface, but I suspect there is more to the story. Frankly, I would LOVE to install a unit which is almost 30lbs lighter than the Xantrex3000 (SW2000=50lbs SW3000=68lbs Multi3000=40lbs). Not to mention it's about $400 less. What's not to love?

There are also some difficulties involved in making this change due to cable routing and location of connectors on the Victron compared to the Xantrex. I am hoping I can just mount it on its side, but I haven't checked yet if there is a warning against doing that.

Let me add, as far as I can tell, the wiring in general is in excellent condition and sized for the demands of our original 3k inverter/120amp charger.

I will close by saying that I have had a great experience with Xantrex chargers/inverters, BEFORE this unit. I had a ProSine 2.5 which worked flawlessly for 10 years (before it was accidentally drenched and destroyed). It seems clear to me the company's products have gone downhill of late.

Thanks in advance and apologies for the length of this post.

[MerMike]

I would heartily disagree that the Victron gear is lightly built.

[MerMike]

And the 5 year warranty speaks for itself.

[goboatingnow]

I had a Xantrek invertor , complete PoS product. Would never touch the brand again.

Victron and Mastervolt are top of this particular pile.

[MerMike]

You can mount the Multiplus on its back or side. Just don't inhibit airflow out the top.

[CarlF]

I’ve had Victron Multis on three boats over 15 years. Only one failure - a board - Victron quickly replaced the unit under warranty. Victron is the only marine electronics vendor I know with a five year warranty. You might ask the Xantrex tech why they don’t do five years…..

[HeywoodJ]

I put in BIG inverters for a living. 10 years ago the biggest units were 650kW and half the size of a 20’ cargo container. Today a small unit is 2000kW and about half the size of the 650s from 10 years ago. So, to the weight argument, I’d say that’s evidence of old tech in an industry that is changing rapidly. And we have fewer early warranty issues than we used to, although longevity is, of necessity, unknown.

I’ve had Victron gear on several boats, and Mastervolt on one, and both makes have been trouble free for me.

[more]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I've noticed the charger (always the charger by the way with this thing, never had a problem with the inverter side) - will just randomly reset. As in, it acts as if incoming AC was interrupted and then re-acquired, starting the 3-stage charging cycle again with Bulk. It used to be once or twice a week I noticed this, lately (last 3 weeks) I am noticing it several times a day.
But now I am so disappointed in this thing I can't see spending more money on another Xantrex product and I am leaning towards the Victron Multi 3000.

First you can buy a separately charger and use xantrex inverter. later when xantrex inverter die buy Victron Phoenix inverter.

[blondjohn]

I installed a Prosine 3.0 (3 kw inverter and 120A charger) in 1999, back before Prosine was bought by Schneider, and before Schneider got bought by Xantrex. I never had any problems with it until it failed in 2015. 16 years of good service with tropical humidity and heat in the equation. In 2015 the largest Prosine being sold was the 2.0. so that is what I bought. It failed on passage to Tahiti two weeks after I installed it in Mexico. I was so pissed off I ordered a Victron Combi Inverter / charger delivered to FP and also got a free warranty replacement Prosine. I could never get the charger function on the Victron to work. I tried everything and was corresponding directly with the head of North American sales who would not authorize a return. I got a faulty unit and Victron did not support me or honor the warranty. (I later sold the Victron cheap to someone who just needed the inverter function and he was able to return it with my receipt and get a new one under warranty from Victron. It was defective out of the box.) My warranty replacement Prosine has been working great for going on 7 years and we live full time on our boat and leave the inverter on all day if we are on the boat and not out diving or ashore. We have used the charger function with transformer power (50Hz) 115 VAC in New Zealand for extended yard and marina stays and never had a problem with the charger.

I will not buy Victron products. Yes, I know they make "great" products, people love them, they have a great reputation, but Victron screwed me and I will never buy their products again. Yes, I hold a grudge.

[Dockhead]

So, another data point for this.


I have the Victron 3000 multi -- for about 10 years, the same unit.


It failed once with a bad board, which irritated me greatly since mine is mounted in a place which takes nearly a full day of contortionist work to install or remove.


I've had some other minor problems with it caused by condensation (water in the ER while I was off the boat) but other than that it has been trouble free.


I have used it hard. I start the engine all the time with the charger on -- why should that be a problem? All the safety shutdowns work flawlessly -- overtemp, overload.


A downside is that the rating of the inverter is wildly optimistic if you are drawn in by the figure "3000". It's not 3000 watts, no! It's 3000VA, so subtract the power factor. And that's only at 10C or something. At warmer temperatures, it won't pull a load of much more than 2000 watts continuously. So keep that in mind.


The functionality is excellent. It's the heart of my boat's power system, and I rely on it, even now going into the second decade of its service life.


I've never known anyone who had anything but trouble with Brand X.


P.S. I can't speak to the functionality or reliability of Mastervolt, but these are much lighter than Victron, since they use switching transformers instead of magnet ones. I've never used one but heard good things. If weight is a big deal for you, might consider that.

[jordanbigel]

Appreciate all the good feedback!

WRT Blondjohn, my ProSine 3.0 was awesome, never a problem, till it got wet due to a leak around a fuel deck fill. The ProSine 2.5 I got after that lasted 10 years - it got wet when I sprayed a garden hose into an above deck throughull to clear out some gunk, but the old plastic throughull was actually disintegrated (due to UV I think) and the water pressure just broke it onto pieces, spraying the interior hull space next to where the ProSine was mounted. Smoke and sparks, screaming from inside the boat. It was a bad scene.

I replaced that plastic throughull with a bronze one, and built a really nice water shield around the new Xantrex. It's demise was not caused by water ingress.

The Victron multi 3000 seems like the best choice at this point. The MasterVolt has a good reputation, but so far I am seeing the best 12v unit available is the 12/2500/100 - ie. only 100amps charging. They do not offer a 12v/3000watt inverter in the Combi series, from what I can find.

The Victron provides 120amp charging, which sounds like a small difference compared to 100, but it should equal a 20% reduction in generator run time, or close to it I hope. Plus, it looks like the prices for the MasterVolt are significantly higher, although I have not done an exhaustive search for a specific model.


A downside is that the rating of the inverter is wildly optimistic if you are drawn in by the figure "3000". It's not 3000 watts, no! It's 3000VA, so subtract the power factor. And that's only at 10C or something. At warmer temperatures, it won't pull a load of much more than 2000 watts continuously. So keep that in mind.


Thanks for this info Dockhead, good to know. Fortunately, I am not a heavy user of the inverter. The occasional microwave reheat, or the rice maker (I can't exist without a rice maker) - the Admiral's blow dryer once in a while. Also, I am planning to upgrade to Lithium this summer, so a robust and high capacity charger is going to be crucial.

[blondjohn]

Hi Jordanbigel,

If you are planning to re-engineer for LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries in the near future, you should look carefully now at how you will integrate inverter and charging functions in the LFP system before you buy a new inverter charger. If you buy "drop-in" batteries and keep a common load and charge bus it won't matter, but for a DIY build with a centralized BMS, system level controls and safety features with separate load and charge buses, which I believe offers tremendous advantages over drop-ins, you will probably want CAN-bus control and possibly even a two unit system with a separate charger and a separate inverter.

I'm currently in the design phase for a transition to LFP and I'll be re-using my old Prosine. Absolutely doable but definitely not "state of the art."

[CharlieJ]

For those commenting on the rating of the inverter/charger: The Victron spec sheet specifically states the VA rating at different temperatures.

[Bycrick]

I had a Xantrex 25 which died. No repairs. Bought a ProSine 3000. Died after 3 years. No repairs. Bought an Outback. No problems until a lightning strike. They sent replacement boards, wonderful instructions on how to swap, and paid return shipping. The next lightning strike, it was so old they wouldn’t exchange the boards, but shipped replacements. Now going on 10 years with the last boards.

Weight used to be a good indicator of robustness when everything as 60 Hz. That takes big transformers. The newer switching mode units run a a high frequency which means much smaller, lighter transformers. Using high-frequency FETs and synchronous rectification reduces the losses in heat, which reduces the heat dissipation problems, so you have smaller and lighter heat sinks. So weight isn’t a good indicator anymore.

[skipmac]

Another happy Victron user. Multiplus 2000 going on 10 years old. Only problem I had was trying to program the charging profile with the DIP switches in the unit. Spent hours including online with their US tech support. Finally broke down and added the remote panel which was a great upgrade anyway and all is good.

Never think about it, don't worry about switching it on or off cranking the engine, plugging in the shore power cord but also a light to moderate user.

One thing that is a great help is the auto boost feature. A few times have tied up at marinas with flaky shore power. Air con would not start on straight shore power but switch on the inverter and the boost function would start it every time.