Interesting find, self soldering sleeves...

[Cadence]

Does anyone remember being told, a solder connection is electrical not mechanical?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Better maybe to use heat gun solder sleeves
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=heat+gun+...b_sb_ss_i_1_16

My personal belief is that the prohibition against solder is over done, a solder joint if supported isn’t really a bad joint from a vibration perspective, and the heat gun solder sleeves do support the solder joint

I agree. Every failed circuit I have ever seen on our boat was at a crimp connector. I solder all crimps and use shrink wrap filled with 3M 5200 for insulation, sealing and strain relief.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

ABYC specs are horse manure. They are inaccessible.

Try and read them without paying hundreds of dollars.

How are boaters suppose to abide by specifications that are not accessible?

That is just so much BS. Simply Google "ABYC E-11". You'll find tons of hits from suppliers who have posted (with permission from ABYC) exerpts from the standards.

Plus every good marine wiring book I own or have seen contains or explains the relevant ABYC specs. Ditto for just about every other marine DIY book (eg marine plumbing).

There's simply no excuse for doing marine work in ignorance of those specs. I do not understand the hate directed at ABYC. They provide a great service to boating manufacturers and boat owners.


More on-topic, soldering isn't a really problem for smaller wire connections (eg LED strips), signal and logic circuits, and our electronic equipment contains components connected by solder, of course.

Where the crimp/solder choice matters most is with conductors that carry enough current to cause problems (eg heating at connections). In those cases, just about every electrical spec I'm familiar with (ABYC, NEC, UL, etc) demands that the primary means of connection is mechanical (eg crimped or clamped). One can also solder the crimp if desired, but it usually doesn't add anything to justify the effort.

[fireant]

From my experience as an auto tech.
I had seen way too many crimp connectors fail. Some weren't crimped properly.
Seen less of a problem with soldered wires. Some soldering did seem to be done by some village idiot.
what I found worked for me with zero fail. I found a seller of the metal tube that goes inside the crimp connector but with no plastic.
I would use a heat shrink tube with internal sealer. make sure its long enough with at list 1/4in length past the repair.
crimp the wires together then solder them and put the tube over it. If its part of a harness I made sure the wire is secured and not hang there.
I also found what worked great for me was adding some hot glue to the repair and then put the heat shrink tube over it, watch the glue come from both ends.
Places I used only solder also never fell apart. just pay attention on how you do it, might take an extra 15sec that's it. DO use the proper soldering gun.
done wiring repair from starter motors down to 5v computer wiring.
I don't see why anyone not want the wires soldered?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... just about every electrical spec I'm familiar with (ABYC, NEC, UL, etc) demands that the primary means of connection is mechanical (eg crimped or clamped). One can also solder the crimp if desired, but it usually doesn't add anything to justify the effort.

I'm not anti-solder. It is a method I use sometimes. But...


... Do NOT tin the wires with solder before inserting into a clamp. This is rejected by ABYC and UL, because the solder can soften with heat, cold flow just a little, and the joint loosens up. Either crimp on a shoelace feral or make certain the terminal has a non-damaging pressure plate (not screw-against-stranded wire).

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Does anyone remember being told, a solder connection is electrical not mechanical?

... Yes. In standards.

[pendragon]

I have had major problems when soldering nav light connections on top of the mast with a 80W solder iron, the wind just keeps the wires too cold.
I also tried those plastic sleeves, using a heat gun, that did not work very well either. In the end the joints are mostly useless and crimping does not make any sense what so ever in that (mast head) situation
So I find these self soldering sleeves a excellent idea. Wrapped with self-amalgamating tape. Exposed to weather, they will last for years.
I spent the last half hour online trying to find a seller.
Anyone know where to purchase them??

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Does anyone remember being told, a solder connection is electrical not mechanical?

In all honesty we were taught many things that you see one almost every boat, like zip ties should never be used on wires and any wiring is not mechanical or structural or whatever, wire is never meant to support itself.
Many, many connectors simply cannot be crimped, crimping is fine for most pins and bigger single wires, but your not crimping ribbon cable for instance.

[Steve DAntonio]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Better maybe to use heat gun solder sleeves
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=heat+gun+...b_sb_ss_i_1_16

My personal belief is that the prohibition against solder is over done, a solder joint if supported isn’t really a bad joint from a vibration perspective, and the heat gun solder sleeves do support the solder joint

The issue with solder isn't so much the hard point, it's the propensity for a solder only connection to separate if momentarily over-loaded, and thus over-heated. There is no prohibition against soldering, only using solder as the sole means of connection (prohibited if you are trying to comply with ABYC Standards), you can crimp and solder for instance.

More details here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/crimping-etiquette/

[Dave9111]

Practical Sailor had an article that included a review of the self soldering connectors.
They did not fair well.



https://www.practical-sailor.com/mar...eal-connectors

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That is just so much BS. Simply Google "ABYC E-11". You'll find tons of hits from suppliers who have posted (with permission from ABYC) exerpts from the standards.

Plus every good marine wiring book I own or have seen contains or explains the relevant ABYC specs. Ditto for just about every other marine DIY book (eg marine plumbing).

There's simply no excuse for doing marine work in ignorance of those specs. I do not understand the hate directed at ABYC. They provide a great service to boating manufacturers and boat owners.


More on-topic, soldering isn't a really problem for smaller wire connections (eg LED strips), signal and logic circuits, and our electronic equipment contains components connected by solder, of course.

Where the crimp/solder choice matters most is with conductors that carry enough current to cause problems (eg heating at connections). In those cases, just about every electrical spec I'm familiar with (ABYC, NEC, UL, etc) demands that the primary means of connection is mechanical (eg crimped or clamped). One can also solder the crimp if desired, but it usually doesn't add anything to justify the effort.

Regarding ABYC.
In order to read the current standards, you have to become a member.
Are you a member? Or you have to pay $200 for that one E-11 standard. Each boat standard is $100 to $500.



Tell me how you would join from this page:

https://abycinc.org/page/Join



If you are relying on Google searches you are likely looking at old standards data. Standards evolve. And the web is full of webcrap. Lots of bad information. Books? Sure, how old are your books?


Here are the standards:

https://abycinc.org/page/standards


Say you are renovating your boat and you need to know the latest standards. In order to do that you need to join ABYC and then order or subscribe ($$$$) to the standards.



There is no option for a lay person to simply the latest standards.
The ABYC is a racket.



Yet, your insurance company will beat you over the head for not knowing the standards if they review your boat for coverage.


This is akin to your local government having jurisdiction over your property but the laws are secret. You plant a tree and they tell you that you are too close to the property line, so you ask to see the laws and they say you need to be a "Paying Member" otherwise you can't read the laws.


That's BS!

The ABYC deserves all the hate it gets for behaving like this.



Compare that to the NEC/NFPA (publisher of the NEC).


Here you can sign up to view the standards for free.

https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/About-the-N...ical-standards


So when the inspector visits your house renovation you can actually know what the code says and dispute it with the inspector if they find an debatable issue.



No need to Google old standards and hope for the best.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Regarding ABYC.
In order to read the current standards, you have to become a member.
Are you a member? Or you have to pay $200 for that one E-11 standard. Each boat standard is $100 to $500.

If you are relying on Google searches you are likely looking at old standards data. Standards evolve. And the web is full of webcrap. Lots of bad information. Books? Sure, how old are your books?

Physics and the flow of electrons has not changed for about 13.7 billion years. The changes to the ABYC standards, revision to revision, are miniscule; and the biggest changes/additions occur when new devices are available.

Blue Seas, West Marine, and other manufacturers aren't going to post crap ABYC excerpts. Ditto for responsible book authors.

... your insurance company will beat you over the head for not knowing the standards if they review your boat for coverage.

No-one is going to know all there is to know about boat wiring from just reading ABYC specs. If you are competent in electrical matters, and do your (free) research, and use a reliable book for guidance as you do electrical work, you won't run afoul of ABYC specs, or be condemned by a surveyor. Worst case - a surveyor will point out a small deficiency, and you do a bit more homework and correct it. They know good work from bad.

Our boat has been surveyed, a couple recommendations were made which I completed on my own time. Insurance accepted the survey with no quibbles or needing a followup. Ditto for house-wiring when I got electrical permits for a service upgrade or for our addition; inspector noted a few small things and told me to correct them, but still passed the work.

This is akin to your local government having jurisdiction over your property but the laws are secret. You plant a tree and they tell you that you are too close to the property line, so you ask to see the laws and they say you need to be a "Paying Member" otherwise you can't read the laws.

That's BS!

The ABYC deserves all the hate it gets for behaving like this.

BS is making a mountain out of a molehill. Have you actually done any serious electrical work yet on your boat? The information you need is all around you - online, books, fellow boatowners, chandleries, manufacturers, seminars, forums, professionals, etc. Learn from what's out there, and ask people.

Do you understand what the ABYC is, how and why they were formed, and what safety and other benefits they have brought to the recreational marine industry?

The NFPA is orders of magnitude larger than the ABYC. If their sources of funding are such that they don't rely on memberships and standards sales... good for them. It's apparently not yet economically feasible for the ABYC to give away their specs.

Let me repeat - there's more than enough available info now, in books or free online, for any halfway competent person to do ABYC-compliant work on their boat.


[I am a past member of ABYC, and have their electrical certification]

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Physics and the flow of electrons has not changed for about 13.7 billion years. The changes to the ABYC standards, revision to revision, are miniscule; and the biggest changes/additions occur when new devices are available.

Blue Seas, West Marine, and other manufacturers aren't going to post crap ABYC excerpts. Ditto for responsible book authors.
No-one is going to know all there is to know about boat wiring from just reading ABYC specs. If you are competent in electrical matters, and do your (free) research, and use a reliable book for guidance as you do electrical work, you won't run afoul of ABYC specs, or be condemned by a surveyor. Worst case - a surveyor will point out a small deficiency, and you do a bit more homework and correct it. They know good work from bad.

Our boat has been surveyed, a couple recommendations were made which I completed on my own time. Insurance accepted the survey with no quibbles or needing a followup. Ditto for house-wiring when I got electrical permits for a service upgrade or for our addition; inspector noted a few small things and told me to correct them, but still passed the work.BS is making a mountain out of a molehill. Have you actually done any serious electrical work yet on your boat? The information you need is all around you - online, books, fellow boatowners, chandleries, manufacturers, seminars, forums, professionals, etc. Learn from what's out there, and ask people.

Do you understand what the ABYC is, how and why they were formed, and what safety and other benefits they have brought to the recreational marine industry?

The NFPA is orders of magnitude larger than the ABYC. If their sources of funding are such that they don't rely on memberships and standards sales... good for them. It's apparently not yet economically feasible for the ABYC to give away their specs.

Let me repeat - there's more than enough available info now, in books or free online, for any halfway competent person to do ABYC-compliant work on their boat.


[I am a past member of ABYC, and have their electrical certification]

Ok, you are defending an organization you have been a part of. Now I understand. It must be valuable, since you were part of it. Otherwise you were wasting your time.

I am a Mechanical/Electrical engineer. I have been working on commercial and industrial electrical power and control systems since 1978 along with some machine design. I currently own and operate an automation company I started in 2003. We do wiring design, system wiring, system implementation/installation, programming and startup for high value, complex control systems. Way, way beyond simple boat wiring.

That is what is so annoying. AYBC treats their standards as secret "rocket science" even though it is anything but. If you not a member of the AYBC "Club" you cannot access the simplest of standards. Keeping the AYBC standards behind a paywall does nothing to make boaters safer. If they were concerned about boater safety, the standards would be accessible by the public. But money comes first with the AYBC. AYBC's first priority is to maintain their organization's existence.

A robotic automation system makes boat wiring look simple, as it is. Yet I can get access to most of the standards for what we do for next to nothing. And the standards are enforced. Screw up and you can spend thousands of dollars making corrections. Don't pay attention to safety concerns and people can get killed and we can be liable. Googling to find safety related standards is just plain dumb. At least 50% of the information I find on the web is incorrect. If you are going to do it right, you need access to the actual standards. Not what some manufacturer updated years ago. The Coast Guard has a boat building guide that can be reference for free, but it is really out of date. It was written in 2003.

So what do you do?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Ok, you are defending an organization you have been a part of. Now I understand. It must be valuable, since you were part of it. Otherwise you were wasting your time.

I joined because it was the most economical route to becoming certified, and I had intentions of working in the field. I stopped being a member after a couple of years when that path was no longer feasible for me. My background is also EE.

I calls em as I sees em. If the ABYC was a waste of time, I would say so.

That is what is so annoying. AYBC treats their standards as secret "rocket science" even though it is anything but. If you not a member of the AYBC "Club" you cannot access the simplest of standards. Keeping the AYBC standards behind a paywall does nothing to make boaters safer. If they were concerned about boater safety, the standards would be accessible by the public. But money comes first with the ABYC. AYBC's first priority is to maintain their organization's existence.

Well duh. Can't do much if you cease to exist.

If the specs are secret, they're about the worst-kept secret in industry.

The ABYC electrical specs aren't rocket-science (or robotic automation). It's DC and AC wiring in a marine environment. The important parts are just codified best practices and condensed references (eg tables for choosing wire gauge). If someone has zero electrical experience, just reading the spec won't make them competent electricians. Moreover, the majority of boat-owners would have trouble understanding and applying much of the spec, if they don't also have practical experience. The average non-electrician boat owner is going to do a better, safer job by reading, understanding and following one of the good boat wiring books, which do follow the ABYC spec current at the time.

The ABYC specs keep boaters safe because the boating industry and trades follow them. In the absence of a better spec, insurance uses them.

If enough people think that the ABYC spec should be in the public domain, maybe you can help convince government that it's in the public interest to fund the ABYC, to make up for lost member or specs revenue.

The Coast Guard has a boat building guide that can be reference for free, but it is really out of date. It was written in 2003.

For the basics and safety, 2003 isn't out of date. A wire run or connection that is safe according to a 2003 CG spec is not going to burn up in 2020.

[Steve DAntonio]

While you can buy individual ABYC Standards, you cannot buy E11 as a stand alone document.

I'll echo the value and importance of ABYC Standards.