Flying Pig's Excellent Adventure (An Unbelievable Electrical Upgrade Story - was: "Ba

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I seriously doubt this is true anymore. Yes it is in many books written before solar became common, but I bet the only people letting their batteries get to 50% anymore are those using nothing but battery voltage as a guide. I don't have a "lot" of solar, but I rarely allow my batteries to drop to below 80% on purpose.

I see it almost every day.
What we on CF who follow the techy threads and know our boat systems inside and out have a hard time wrapping our heads around is that we are NOT representative of the average cruisers out there today.

Now, I'm in no way knocking these average cruisers but in the capacity of my Job, I talk to a LOT of cruisers and you would be amazed by the number that don't know their battery type, battery bank size, amount of solar Wattage and have no battery meter/totalizer aboard their boats. Of course it goes without saying that these folks are the ones typically struggling with their battery management a few months after arriving in Mexico. On goes more solar and battery monitors fly off the shelf here in La Paz every year when the new cruisers arrive and realize how important it is to know your batteries.

Chat rooms like this are important for highlighting these typical cruiser system weaknesses to that cruisers in planning (at least the ones that take time to do a little research) can save themselves headache in their first year off the dock.

[Windcall]

Yikes Skip was this saga before you went to the Bahamas?
My Xantrex Freedom isn't charging shore, or Genset since we will be mostly motoring uphill to CT not going to do anything. Should I have it fixed again or replace?

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Windcall

Yikes Skip was this saga before you went to the Bahamas?
My Xantrex Freedom isn't charging shore, or Genset since we will be mostly motoring uphill to CT not going to do anything. Should I have it fixed again or replace?

Hi, Rich (post above Windcall's)!

Windcall, I'm not sure I understand the question.

The installation was about a year ago, and involved our being on the dock for a bit over 3 month$. So, technically, it was both after and before we went to the Bahamas

If you're asking if you should have your Freedom repaired or replaced, I'm not the best judge of that. I can say that our inverter-charger won't be repaired (other than maybe to replace the cooling fan, which I ordered more than a year ago) again, and I'm actively looking at replacements.

But if you have a spare alternator (that's another, new, now, story; we just replaced ours, as the one which was there for the last 5 years was beyond rebuild), and will be motoring most of the way, you should have no issues with keeping your batteries charged.

In my case it was a matter of not boiling the new batteries to death that prompted my removal-for-rebuild of the previous alternator. However, if you happen to follow my adventures otherwise, you know that I had a water pump">raw water pump failure (occasioning my offering the shaft-damaged top-hat pulley which caused, and came off, that failure, to anyone who could rebuild it) on the way back a couple of trips ago, which was a mere nuisance due to my having a fully ready replacement. I have (count'em) 3 spare alternators beyond my now-new (not rebuilt) one I installed.

Sorry for what might sound like a rant. I'm uncomfortable being several days offshore (distance to shore) without LOTS of spares...

[skipgundlach]

PS regarding the difference in efficiencies in various panels...

Here's a link to a tech sheet which shows the different efficiencies of the different wattage Sunpower panels with the same footprint:

https://us.sunpower.com/sites/sunpow...nical-spec.pdf

[john61ct]

Xantrex has horrible repair support, both to end-users, and to authorized repair centers.

Avoiding from now on, never again anything pricey, maybe Echo Charger, but they're so robust can buy secondhand.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

I see it almost every day.
What we on CF who follow the techy threads and know our boat systems inside and out have a hard time wrapping our heads around is that we are NOT representative of the average cruisers out there today.

I was chatting to my next door neighbour in the marina at the weekend and he said his batteries were failing. I asked him how old they were and he said 10 years old and surely they should last longer than that. Turns out they were just an ordinary pair of 12v batteries that had been down to 10v for some time. I told him they were shot and should start again. He didn't like that idea so wandered off to buy one of those car booster battery sets to help start the engine each time.

You are right the CF members who have put the hours in learning are vastly out numbered on the water by folk who just don't know what they don't know.

[Jammer]

Hi Skip. Thanks for the post, interesting and informative.

It is my view that the importance of equalizing the bank is overrated. You can check SGs or individual cell voltages to see if there is any meaningful difference in state of charge between cells. If there is not, there is no need to equalize. Once or twice a years is sufficient in most cases.

I have become a fan of using solder slug connectors rather than crimp simply because they do not require a fancy crimping tool -- just an ordinary propane torch. There's probably a case to be made that the crimp connections have a slight edge in reliability, but I've never actually had a solder slug connection fail.

Your post illustrates how hard it is to get these systems right, and how few technicians have the ability to diagnose problems with them.

[john61ct]

If the manufacturer specifies equalizing / conditioning it should be done.

Nothing to do with internal cell imbalance, but does greatly extends lifespan, especially since PSOC abuse is so common.

But only manually, disable anything automatic.

Most owners fail to "commission charge" and break in their banks properly, that also helps maximize overall lifespan.

Then again, many just don't care if they need to replace their bank more frequently.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Hi Skip. Thanks for the post, interesting and informative.

It is my view that the importance of equalizing the bank is overrated. You can check SGs or individual cell voltages to see if there is any meaningful difference in state of charge between cells. If there is not, there is no need to equalize. Once or twice a years is sufficient in most cases.

I have become a fan of using solder slug connectors rather than crimp simply because they do not require a fancy crimping tool -- just an ordinary propane torch. There's probably a case to be made that the crimp connections have a slight edge in reliability, but I've never actually had a solder slug connection fail.

Your post illustrates how hard it is to get these systems right, and how few technicians have the ability to diagnose problems with them.

Coupla things...

First is that my equalization has been, nearly always, a product of my not-floating-off prior regulator on the aforementioned alternator. With my practice, now that it's feasible, nearly-every-day-C-100 means that equalization is far less important.

And I do own, and use when I'm suspicious, a temperature compensating SGR baster, so I agree with you in principle

However, the proximate cause of the replacement of my alternator mentioned above is the failure of the solder joint of the lug attached to the alternator.

I thought initially that it was a crimp which had failed - but when I had both parts in my hand, and peeled back the glued shrink wrap, I found this pristine lug, perfectly round (open ended) with lovely grooves in it to hold the solder, and the similarly pristine end of the cable, complete with a bit of extra solder on the area which was at the lug entry.

That it was massively oversized for the job (70A alternator, 4' run, #0 cable) MIGHT (vibration) have had something to do with the failure. But I can say with some assurance that short of someone pretending they were in gym class and attempting to use it for a climbing rope, my lug-to-cable crimp is unlikely to fail.

I don't have a pic of the new (#4!) cable I installed in its place, but here's some pics of my crimping:

Pictures: Flying Pig Shake-and-Break-Down 2016-2017/Electrical Upgrade/Batteries/Cabling/Cut - Crimp - Shrink

The last couple of pix show my smaller cable crimp; it's how I made my new alternator cable...

[FSMike]

Skip - What a saga.
I'm one of Rich's electron illiterate cruisers, but since my needs are small so are my failures.
The one great truth from your story is :
When talking about boat work, if you use the plural of the word month, it should always be ended with $, rather than s.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by FSMike

Skip - What a saga.
I'm one of Rich's electron illiterate cruisers, but since my needs are small so are my failures.
The one great truth from your story is :
When talking about boat work, if you use the plural of the word month, it should always be ended with $, rather than s.

"It's a boat. Therefore everything on it is broken - you just don't know it yet!"

and

"Working on a boat is like peeling an old onion. Peel a layer and cry. Rinse, repeat. Eventually you get down to the good stuff and you can start working."

There is never a project which goes exactly as planned. Even Don Casey admits that after all the years he's been doing it, his now-accurate estimate of time is to figure out how long he thinks each step could take, add them up and then multiply by 3. He sez it's usually pretty close.

But for a guy who does this day in and day out, and writes about it, to routinely be off by a factor of three sez we grunts can hardly be chastised for taking longer than we thought initially

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

However, the proximate cause of the replacement of my alternator mentioned above is the failure of the solder joint of the lug attached to the alternator.

I thought initially that it was a crimp which had failed - but when I had both parts in my hand, and peeled back the glued shrink wrap, I found this pristine lug, perfectly round (open ended) with lovely grooves in it to hold the solder, and the similarly pristine end of the cable, complete with a bit of extra solder on the area which was at the lug entry.

Skip,

While I will agree that a properly crimped connection (using the correct die and the right amount of pressure) is the gold standard, I'd like to understand what happened here.

The right way to solder a large cable into a lug is to use solder slugs, not solder wire. The lug is put in a vise or whatever so that the "cup" faces upwards, and two or three slugs are placed in the "cup." Then the slug and lug are heated with a torch until the solder is thoroughly melted, and the cable end is pushed into the pool of solder. I've had good results up to 00 cable this way and believe it would work with larger cable if needed.

That it was massively oversized for the job (70A alternator, 4' run, #0 cable) MIGHT (vibration) have had something to do with the failure. But I can say with some assurance that short of someone pretending they were in gym class and attempting to use it for a climbing rope, my lug-to-cable crimp is unlikely to fail.

As well as leading to excessive stress on the output stud of the alternator.

I am a fan of using welding cable in situations like this. The finer stranding makes a more flexible cable and therefore a system that is more reliable as a whole where there is vibration and movement. However, it is not available tinned, and so it must be connected using gas-tight methods so that corrosion is not a factor. A properly installed crimp lug is gas tight, as is a properly installed solder lug. In contrast any sort of screw connection, even a good one, is not and will not be reliable with untinned cable in a marine environment.

With an external regulator that has a separate voltage sense wire, as I believe your installation does, #6 would have been enough.

[skipgundlach]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Skip,

While I will agree that a properly crimped connection (using the correct die and the right amount of pressure) is the gold standard, I'd like to understand what happened here.

The right way to solder a large cable into a lug is to use solder slugs, not solder wire. The lug is put in a vise or whatever so that the "cup" faces upwards, and two or three slugs are placed in the "cup." Then the slug and lug are heated with a torch until the solder is thoroughly melted, and the cable end is pushed into the pool of solder. I've had good results up to 00 cable this way and believe it would work with larger cable if needed.



As well as leading to excessive stress on the output stud of the alternator.

I am a fan of using welding cable in situations like this. The finer stranding makes a more flexible cable and therefore a system that is more reliable as a whole where there is vibration and movement. However, it is not available tinned, and so it must be connected using gas-tight methods so that corrosion is not a factor. A properly installed crimp lug is gas tight, as is a properly installed solder lug. In contrast any sort of screw connection, even a good one, is not and will not be reliable with untinned cable in a marine environment.

With an external regulator that has a separate voltage sense wire, as I believe your installation does, #6 would have been enough.

Good points, all. The lug was open ended, so it could not have been made up as you suggest. I agree that the rigidity of that cable (not tinned, not thin strand, probably original to the boat) didn't do me any good BEFORE it failed.

I agree about the eventual size of the cable, but for the few extra cents, and the real Ancor, tinned, thin-strand, it will accommodate a larger alternator should I ever go that route. Of course, now that we have all this solar, it's unlikely. Even my horrendously hungry refrigeration is being supplied with my new setup.

My new alternator has only a tach wire external, for whatever that's worth. I'll have pix of this at some point in the near future, and will add them to another subgallery of the electrical upgrade. My inverter-charger may be next, and if I get too many instances of my solar controller doing the relay-chatter fibrillation, that, too (I have a spare in hand on that one).

But in general we're thrilled beyond measure with the end result

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by skipgundlach

Good points, all. The lug was open ended, so it could not have been made up as you suggest. I agree that the rigidity of that cable (not tinned, not thin strand, probably original to the boat) didn't do me any good BEFORE it failed.

Original to the boat?! Unless your Morgan is much newer than my Morgan then it dates from an era when the only people who knew anything about making reliable high-current DC connections worked for either the phone company or Otis Elevators. Or maybe the military.

I think it's interesting to ponder the eras involved. Tin/lead solder connections were pretty much held up as the most reliable way of doing things until the really good crimp connectors started showing up in the late 1970s. Soldering has two inherent drawbacks for high-amp connections. If anything starts to go wrong with the connection, and the connection overheats, the solder melts, which can lead to undesirable failure modes. The other is that it wicks into the stranded cable and locally stiffens in which can lead to greater vibration loads.

The use of solder slugs and pot-type lugs helps with both of these. They don't take a lot of skill or control of the heat source to make, and you can pretty reliably get a good enough connection that it just won't overheat; if the lug is loosely bolted to the terminal something else is going to burn up (in this case the rectifier bridge) before the solder joint gets hot enough to loosen. And on the "wicking solder" side of the problem, because the wire isn't heated except by the solder itself, the amount of wicking is considerably less.

Anyway, I think they're great, and I've quit jonesing for a $500 crimper since I discovered them.

[john61ct]

I don't think soldering is even worth discussing for this application, except among those that are already well skilled at it.

The key phrase is "repeatable quality results" and little to no skill is required to achieve that given the right hardware.