Firefly Oasis : 2 years old and dead

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by kenbo

Not claiming any technical expertise in regards to AGMs, but would those requirements rule out charging AGMs with most solar arrays?

No expertise with solar, so don't know. OTOH, Lifeline's "minimum recommendations" uses the word "should" and they include some additional guidelines for alternatives.

Originally Posted by LeaseOnLife

Not helpful! And probably not correct.

Here is what I find in my Lifeline Technical Manual, page 20 (it doesn't let me copy and paste the text, so I have to use images). Since we avoid discharging deeper than 50%, the point of a needed 0.2C charging capability is not supported by (this section) of the manual. If you find something, please do provide a citation, not just "find it yourself".

OK, that para says:

For repetitive deep cycling applications (deeper than 50% DOD), chargers should have an output current of at least 0.2C (20 amps for a 100 Ah battery). If the output current is less than this value, the cycle life of the battery may be negatively affected."


It goes on from there discussing alternatives. I'm not going to debate Lifeline's grammar, nor am I going to debate their suggestions for alternatives.

You're free to decide whether their wording is or is not a recommendation.

Anyway, my only point was that Odyssey and Lifeline do indeed publish their recommendations.

-Chris

[kenbo]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

No expertise with solar, so don't know. OTOH, Lifeline's "minimum recommendations" uses the word "should" and they include some additional guidelines for alternatives.





OK, that para says:

For repetitive deep cycling applications (deeper than 50% DOD), chargers should have an output current of at least 0.2C (20 amps for a 100 Ah battery). If the output current is less than this value, the cycle life of the battery may be negatively affected."


It goes on from there discussing alternatives. I'm not going to debate Lifeline's grammar, nor am I going to debate their suggestions for alternatives.

You're free to decide whether their wording is or is not a recommendation.

Anyway, my only point was that Odyssey and Lifeline do indeed publish their recommendations.

-Chris

So it seems to me that by Lifeline's documentation their batteries are not an optimal choice for cruising boats that use solar as their primary charging source.

Maybe that's why so many have poor user experience.

[RickG]

FredVeroMakani, that suck. We have are full-time liveaboard and have been at anchor for the last year. Our seven FF G31s have been great. We have 660 watts of solar and only go below 80% DOD when there is cloudy weather. We can go three days before 50% DOD, that was my goal in sizing our bank.

Monthly maintenance? I don't know what that would be. We just make sure the batteries are charged full as often as possible.

The boat is in hurricane storage at Puerto del Rey in Puerto Rico. After two months on the hard with no charging battery voltage is above 12.7V.

In ten years when we're thinking about batteries maybe we'll go with LFP. Our Victron charging and inverting system is compatible.

Cheers, RickG

[john61ct]

Lifeline is a top-notch maker if you really need AGM.

Buying from a vendor that does not publish the details, tell you the truth about how to optimize care, will not get you better longevity.

Just because .4C is **better** for their longevity, does not mean they are a poor choice if you can't provide that. Compared to what?

True, all AGM are inferior to FLA for value and longevity.

But if you want sealed **and** a lower rate of charge, you **can** get longer life from GEL, in NA from both Deka/EPM or Sonnenschein.

But you need to be **more** careful about their care regime, they are even fussier than AGM about voltage levels, and especially preventing overcharging.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Lifeline is a top-notch maker if you really need AGM.

Buying from a vendor that does not publish the details, tell you the truth about how to optimize care, will not get you better longevity.

Just because .4C is **better** for their longevity, does not mean they are a poor choice if you can't provide that. Compared to what?

True, all AGM are inferior to FLA for value and longevity.

But if you want sealed **and** a lower rate of charge, you **can** get longer life from GEL, in NA from both Deka/EPM or Sonnenschein.

But you need to be **more** careful about their care regime, they are even fussier than AGM about voltage levels, and especially preventing overcharging.

You're blanket statements that so many in practice see exceptions to really don't contribute much to others understanding. I have personal use of AGMs where they died in one year (one of your often recommended brands Northstar) and ones that are still in use everyday on a fulltime cruising boat and running strong after 9 years (one of your not recommended brands Rolls).

A little subtly might help.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Paul L

I have personal use of AGMs where they died in one year (one of your often recommended brands Northstar) and ones that are still in use everyday on a fulltime cruising boat and running strong after 9 years (one of your not recommended brands Rolls).

Any battery, no matter how good, can die in just a few months, with many possibly inter-related causes.

The care regime is more important than the brand. Note this does not mean the top-notch maker is not hugely important to getting "even longer", once the care regime is in place.

Nine years isn't even that long anyway when you have both.

And pretty sure Rolls did not start selling their rebadged AGM over nine years ago.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You're blanket statements that so many in practice see exceptions to really don't contribute much to others understanding. I have personal use of AGMs where they died in one year (one of your often recommended brands Northstar) and ones that are still in use everyday on a fulltime cruising boat and running strong after 9 years (one of your not recommended brands Rolls).

A little subtly might help.

Declarative statements without benefit of knowledge or experience is his métier, not subtlety.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Any battery, no matter how good, can die in just a few months, with many possibly inter-related causes.

The care regime is more important than the brand. Note this does not mean the top-notch maker is not hugely important to getting "even longer", once the care regime is in place.
.

As usual, blame the victim.

Originally Posted by john61ct

Nine years isn't even that long anyway when you have both.

And pretty sure Rolls did not start selling their rebadged AGM over nine years ago.

Now 9 years might not be long in your world of the Web and theory, but for those of us that actually cruise fulltime and use the batteries everyday 9 years is a lot of service and a good thing.

Hopefully you can make out the Rolls logo and the 2010 date on my battery installation in the picture below taken this morning in an anchoragr on the east side of Lombock below the volcano in Indonesia. Now that you've seen it on the Web you can start to claim it is your personal unflappable experience and the gospel truth, and call it out wide and loud.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by kenbo

So it seems to me that by Lifeline's documentation their batteries are not an optimal choice for cruising boats that use solar as their primary charging source.



Maybe that's why so many have poor user experience.

I’d have a tendency to agree, but mostly it’s not due to not being able to meet the .2C charge recommendation, it’s due to not being fully, 100% charged.
There was a post recently dispelling the “myth” that you can’t fully charge with Solar by noon. What was left out of that post was the the geographic location of where the boat was and the time of year that the time between sunrise and sunset was over 18 hours long, so yes nine hours after sunrise it’s possible to be fully charged.
However if your the typical cruiser in the Bahamas in Dec when the time between sunrise and sunset is only 10 hours, it’s not likely you will be fully charged, cause of course it’s a couple of hours after sunrise before your really getting good Solar output, and it stops a couple of hours before sunset.
During Winter in the Bahamas I find that running my little Honda for 30 min in the morning will get me to fully charged every day, except of course rainy overcast days, which aren’t frequent.

But having an Lifeline bank for 5 years and expecting several more years from them, I’d agree, they are not probably the best bank for a typical cruising boat, they are more expensive and require more care than other batteries. Care as in ensuring that at min a couple times a week you hit .05C at absorption voltage, and if your only doing that a couple times a week, then you need to equalize monthly.
That from a Phone conversation from one of the Godwin’s when I got my bank, I don’t think I can find the monthly equalization in print, but it was based on being fully charged twice weekly, cause my initial plan was to make water twice weekly and of course run the charger then, and that would ensure 100% charged,but I discovered a daily 30 to 60 min run of the Honda with the charger set for 100 Amps would get me there, every day.

[john61ct]

And all those issues are just as true with all AGM and GEL, all the top marques.

Firefly being an exception, but within lead, nothing beats FLA for ease of care, price, longevity and thus best value over time.

Shooting for 12+ years rather than 8-9, and at lower cost to boot.

Or, if you need to replace every 3-5, doesn't hurt as bad at $1 per Ah.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

And all those issues are just as true with all AGM and GEL, all the top marques.

Firefly being an exception, but within lead, nothing beats FLA for ease of care, price, longevity and thus best value over time.

Shooting for 12+ years rather than 8-9, and at lower cost to boot.

Or, if you need to replace every 3-5, doesn't hurt as bad at $1 per Ah.

How many times have you had batteries last 12 years while cruising? What brand were they? You must have taken very good care of them while still doing no maintainance, aka ease of care. Or is this another of your web fantasy voyages where everything works to be lowest cost, highest performance and all good weather?
Show us a picture of your yacht battery install.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Paul L

How many times have you had batteries last 12 years while cruising? What brand were they? You must have taken very good care of them while still doing no maintainance, aka ease of care. Or is this another of your web fantasy voyages where everything works to be lowest cost, highest performance and all good weather?
Show us a picture of your yacht battery install.

Had Deka Group 31 105 amp-hr AGM batteries, two of them as a house bank, and one as a starter battery. On a sailboat with Blue Sky three stage solar controller tied to two 120 watt solar panels. Shore power with three stage charger as well. No generator, and motors were twin 9.9 hp outboards. The AGM's were on the boat when i purchased in 2006, and were original equipment installed in 2002. One of them went bad in 2014, and i replaced all three. Bought the same batteries as replacement. They were DEKA brand, manufactured by Penn Central i believe.

I gave mastervolt 225 AGM batteries on the new boat. One went bad within first three months. Replaced them both.

[skenn_ie]

Suggestion: Anyone running 24V or higher, Install 2 battery-state gauges, and a selector switch to switch between pairs/banks. Frequently compare high and low battery states to check for imbalance.

[moseriw]

You should check the output of the solar panels and the conversion of the MPPT.
These f... Victron MPPT's require a stsrting Voltage of 17,4V to operate correctly.
They always show bulk but in this case they do never fully charge the batteries.

So you read 12,66V at night and above with the MPPT serving but this will destroy your batteries within month's.

I have Victrons too but I will replace this high professional scrap - without any helpdesk - as soon as I can afford it.

[john61ct]

Wow.

First off, of course you should not use old-school low-voltage panels with modern MPPT controllers. Those were designed for PWM only.

Also, always buy sophisticated gear from a proper dealer recommended to provide good tech support,

buying online based on just lowest price is just shooting yourself in the foot.

There is excellent support available in the Victron community forums, staff engineers and even the designer / founder contribute regularly.

Originally Posted by skenn_ie

Suggestion: Anyone running 24V or higher, Install 2 battery-state gauges, and a selector switch to switch between pairs/banks. Frequently compare high and low battery states to check for imbalance.

Better approach: install a single Victron 712-BMV and use its midpoint tap imbalance detection feature.