ELCI breaker before or after inverter?

[mroc]

Update. ELCI installation fiasco. As indicated above, I did go through an agonizing deliberation where to install the ELCI. I played safe and installed it right downstream the shore power inlet. I have a galvanic isolator too, so I connected all grounding green wires also downstream the galvanic isolator. All as per schematics provided in ELCI info. Regretfully, the ELCI trips upon connection of any receivers (even w/o load), so I guess it is a fiasco.
Anybody has some suggestions?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mroc

Update. ELCI installation fiasco. As indicated above, I did go through an agonizing deliberation where to install the ELCI. I played safe and installed it right downstream the shore power inlet. I have a galvanic isolator too, so I connected all grounding green wires also downstream the galvanic isolator. All as per schematics provided in ELCI info. Regretfully, the ELCI trips upon connection of any receivers (even w/o load), so I guess it is a fiasco.
Anybody has some suggestions?

How can you do such a thing? Don’t you know what a galvanic isolator is and how to wire ground conductors? Or is this a joke?

You don’t need tips, you need an electrician.

[JanH]

A schematic of what you hooked up (or think you hooked up) would be helpful. The ELCI should indeed be first in the circuit between the shore power connector and the rest of the boat circuits; it trips whenever there is a difference in the current in the live and neutral conductors. The galvanic isolator should be inline in the ground wire between the shore power connector and the boat circuit - it simply provides a small voltage drop in the ground wire should any current be conducted through the ground wire (there should normally be none), and should not affect the ELCI. If there is an inverter in the on-board electrical system, it is important that the neutral and ground are connected properly, and that the transfer switch breaks the inverter neutral to ground connection before the shore power connection 'sees' this (and trips the ELCI).

[more]

Originally Posted by mroc

Update. ELCI installation fiasco.
so I connected all grounding green wires also downstream the galvanic isolator. All as per schematics provided in ELCI info. Regretfully, the ELCI trips upon connection of any receivers (even w/o load), so I guess it is a fiasco.
Anybody has some suggestions?

iam not expert in usa strange wiring (and i don't want thinking how,way)
but if usa ELCI similar for EU Residual Current Device” (RCD).

eu RCD need neutral and live wire only, what you talking grounding i dont understend what grounding wire have with ELCI,RCD or for you better RCBO.


i think also usa ELCI/ or better RCBO measure difference between live wire neutral wire. grounding is seperate wire(green-yelow EU) or your body .
if ELCI/RCBO sensor find lekage 30-300 mA trip

also i think you need electricians , and always put photo what you do.

[coopec43]

I'm reading through every comment because tomorrow I am installing a 200A circuit breaker between the battery and the 24V 2000W/4000W inverter.

I am confused by the acronyms RCD/ELCI/GFCI Are they the same devices?.
(I plan to have an RCD on each of the three power outlets of the inverter.

(I have no shore power)

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by coopec43

I am confused by the acronyms RCD/ELCI/GFCI Are they the same devices?.
(I plan to have an RCD on each of the three power outlets of the inverter.

Yes, just different names for the same widget. ELCO/GFCI is US and RCD/RCBO European. RCBOs now taking over from RCDs in Europe.

Originally Posted by coopec43

(I have no shore power)

That's fine, what about a generator?

Pete

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes, just different names for the same widget. ELCO/GFCI is US and RCD/RCBO European. RCBOs now taking over from RCDs in Europe.

That's fine, what about a generator?

Pete

Pete

Apart from solar panels I have a 24V 60A alternator on the engine.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Pete

Apart from solar panels I have a 24V 60A alternator on the engine.

Doesn't count, they are DC.

Originally Posted by coopec43

(I plan to have an RCD on each of the three power outlets of the inverter.

I chose to only use one inverter output and put a RCBO on that. However, I did inspect the inverter wiring to ensure that neutral is bonded to the earth (UK inverter). UK 13A plug also has an AC fuse before the RCBO.

[mroc]

S/v Jedi,
Thanks for your critique. I would appreciate it more if it could be a more constructive one.
I don’t claim to be an electrician by trade, but thought that I could do this relatively simple installation after extensive consultations with the supplier, a friendly electrician, and following instructions in the manual.
Just to clarify, my grounding (green) from the shore power is on one terminal of the galvanic isolator and all other greens including the source coming to ELCI are on the boat side of the isolator. Any other hookups of the greens would effectively bypass the galvanic isolator and defeat its purpose.
If my blunders here are so obvious, could you list them for me.

Best regards

[CharlieJ]

mroc
Most ELCIs that I am familiar with have indicating LEDs that show whether the ELCI tripped due to leakage or overload. If the ELCI you installed has these indicators, how did the ELCI trip?

Regardless of whether your ELCI has indicators are not, and assuming that the ELCI is tripping on leakage, the conclusion is that you have a neutral to ground bond (N > G) bond on the boat.

The first step in troubleshooting this is to disconnect shore power and use a DMM to check the resistance between the N bus and the G bus. It should read >25kOhms, and is usually much higher (in the mega-ohm range).

Let us know what you find.

[more]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

mroc
Most ELCIs that I am familiar with have indicating LEDs that show whether the ELCI tripped due to leakage or overload. If the ELCI you installed has these indicators, how did the ELCI trip?

Let us know what you find.

i think you are wrong ELCI leakage device not over curent device only safety.

RCBO is leakage and overcurrent device

please some american electrician confirm my world.


again
green ground wire dont come close to ELCI,RCBO device.



possible in EU(but stupid not shure is forbiden now)

grid fuse-to -energy meter- Neutral wire- connect to ground - RCD to fuse from fuse to user.

ussualy pro eletrician dont want do this work, simply skip job and go on next.

ussualy time to wait eletrician is 3 month to 1 year

[CharlieJ]

@more

i think you are wrong ELCI leakage device not over curent device only safety.

RCBO is leakage and overcurrent device

please some american electrician confirm my world.

First of all, I am an American marine electrician and have been for 24 years.

Secondly, ELCIs in the USA made by Carling Industries and marketed by Blue Sea Systems are what are called RCBO’s in Europe. The man asked about ELCIs and installed an ELCI.

again green ground wire dont come close to ELCI,RCBO device.

I agree and never stated that it did. What I explained is what will cause the ELCI (USA) RCBO (Europe) to trip on leakage.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mroc

S/v Jedi,
Thanks for your critique. I would appreciate it more if it could be a more constructive one.
I don’t claim to be an electrician by trade, but thought that I could do this relatively simple installation after extensive consultations with the supplier, a friendly electrician, and following instructions in the manual.
Just to clarify, my grounding (green) from the shore power is on one terminal of the galvanic isolator and all other greens including the source coming to ELCI are on the boat side of the isolator. Any other hookups of the greens would effectively bypass the galvanic isolator and defeat its purpose.
If my blunders here are so obvious, could you list them for me.

Best regards

The ELCI belongs to the shore side, so no ground wire from that should connect to the ship side of the galvanic isolator. You are bypassing it and rendering it useless.

For accurate help, provide a detailed diagram showing every conductor and the shore power inlet, the ELCI, the galvanic isolator and the boat AC panel. Also, if you have any additional items, include those as well.

[mroc]

Thanks a lot.
I will investigate further. One suspect may be a sketchy shore power. But I don’t understand the deal about the green wires not being close to the ELCI. The manufacturer info is very descriptive requiring both green wires from source and from load leads interconnected and there is a grounding terminal inside the device. In fact, the device itself has a tiny green wire that is to be connected to the said terminal. BTW - pro electricians are great help if you can get them. And I can fix things I built in the middle of nowhere. If somebody did for me, not always.
Regards

[CharlieJ]

@mroc
The safety ground wire has nothing to do with the core operation of the ELCI.

An ELCI measures the current being supplied/returned with current transformers (CTs). CTs are what you routed the wire through. The ground wire is not passed through a CT.

If what is being supplied on the line or lines, does not equal what is being returned on the neutral by 30mAAC, then there is unacceptable leakage and the ELCI opens the contacts.

Since the shore power cord downstream from the shore power inlet had to be cut (L, N, and G) to install the ELCI, the manufacture provides a post to terminate the G conductor which is simply passing through.

The galvanic isolator should be installed in the G wire exiting the ELCI, shore side. The shore side is the G conductor feeding your safety ground bus at the main panel board. Generally!