ELCI breaker before or after inverter?

[FlyingScot]

I suspect the OP has one of these boxes from BlueSea.
https://d2pyqm2yd3fw2i.cloudfront.ne.../980009840.pdf

[more]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@more

First of all, I am an American marine electrician and have been for 24 years.

Secondly, ELCIs in the USA made by Carling Industries and marketed by Blue Sea Systems are what are called RCBO’s in Europe. The man asked about ELCIs and installed an ELCI.


I agree and never stated that it did. What I explained is what will cause the ELCI (USA) RCBO (Europe) to trip on leakage.

i check now this ELCI is so expensive in USA . for 1 usa elci 40/50A easy possible by 5 RCBO schneider electric, or schrack. 20-25€ or 25 chinese 4-5€ pices.

why is so expensive in usa

[CharlieJ]

@more

i check now this ELCI is so expensive in USA . for 1 usa elci 40/50A easy possible by 5 RCBO schneider electric, or schrack. 20-25€ or 25 chinese 4-5€ pices.

why is so expensive in usa

How does this help the man with the question?

[more]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@more


How does this help the man with the question?

what, guy have answer for his problem
Jedi give him best answer "don’t need tips, you need an electrician"

what you think is little danger giving tip on AC eletric 110v on sea for guy have manual from manufacture and don't understand connect simply device like ELCI
2 wire in 2 wire out.


DANGER! Hazardous voltage. Can cause death or
serious injury. Turn off and lock out power supply
before installing PB-Series ELCI / RCBO.
INSTALLATION PROCEDURE:
1. The ELCI/RCBO should be installed by a qualified
electrician.
2. Turn “OFF” and lock out the power to enclosure in
which ELCI/RCBO is to be installed.
3. Turn “OFF” the ELCI/RCBO handle. Feed the load
side (L1) hot and (N) neutral wires through the
opening in the sensing coil. Connect to the
appropriate load side terminals of the circuit breaker.
Connect corresponding line side (source) wires
directly to the Breaker Line Terminals.
4. Connect the white “pigtail” neutral wire of
ELCI/RCBO to the load side Neutral terminal (see
Fig. A).
5. Mount ELCI/RCBO to front panel and mount front
panel to enclosure (may be mounted first, depending
on installation).
6. Turn “ON” power and turn “ON” breaker handle.
Test the ELCI/RCBO as per test instructions below.
7. Place Monthly Test Reminder label in a convenient
place near the or on the panel and instruct
equipment users on test procedures and the
importance of performing and recording monthly
tests.

TEST INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Turn on the power to the panel.
2. Turn “ON” the ELCI/RCBO handle.
3. Depress the “TEST MONTHLY” button. This will
cause the handle to move to the “OFF” position
indicating that the ELCI/RCBO is functioning
properly. If the handle fails to move to the “OFF”
position the unit MUST be replaced.
4. Restore power by moving the ELCI/RCBO handle to
the “ON” position.
5. This test is to be performed on a monthly basis and
recorded on the “Monthly Test Reminder” label.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes, just different names for the same widget. ELCO/GFCI is US and RCD/RCBO European. RCBOs now taking over from RCDs in Europe.

That's fine, what about a generator?

Pete

Pete

Thanks for that.

I'm a bit dubious about the value of RCDs. I had one installed in the meter box of my city suburban house but that didn't stop me getting zapped while I was in the backyard. An electrician who happened to be there at the time told me a meter box RCD wouldn't give protection over a long distance- "it is better to have one installed in the extension cord"

I was zapped once again in the backyard of a different home (it had a meter box RCD) so I immediately had an RCD installed in my backyard workshop. .

[more]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Pete

Thanks for that.

I'm a bit dubious about the value of RCDs. I had one installed in the meter box of my city suburban house but that didn't stop me getting zapped while I was in the backyard. An electrician who happened to be there at the time told me a meter box RCD wouldn't give protection over a long distance- "it is better to have one installed in the extension cord"

I was zapped once again in the backyard of a different home (it had a meter box RCD) so I immediately had an RCD installed in my backyard workshop. .

RCD not prevent you zapped,his purpose you dont killed.also you have rcd 30ma(0,03A)100ma,300ma and 500ma (0,5A)
only safe for all 30mA usually use in bathroom
by some researcher 100-300 ma possible kill some people with some condition.

RCD switches can be divided (according to IEC/EN 61008) into:
RCCB – RCD switch without built-in overcurrent switch
RCBO – RCD switch with built-in overcurrent switch (so it would be an RCD)
SRCD – RCD switch built into the socket
PRCD – portable RCD switch (e.g. built into an extension cord)

Depending on their reaction to different types of differential current, RCD switches are divided into several types:
Type AC – this RCD switch reacts only when an unwanted sinusoidal current appears and it is used in 90% of cases.
Type A - RCD switch Type A, in addition to reacting to sinusoidal currents (the same as type AC), also reacts to the appearance of pulsating direct current fault currents that occur suddenly or with slow growth.
Type U – sensitive to AC and pulsed DC currents. Trip characteristic adapted to application with frequency converters.
Type B – this is a universally sensitive RCD switch that will respond to all types of fault currents: AC, pulsed DC as well as smooth DC.
All of these differential currents can appear suddenly or with a slow increase (RCD switch type B will react in all cases).

According to the reaction time of the RCD switch, we divide it into:
Standard - do not have a defined minimum trigger time. With them, only the maximum time within which the RCD switch must react is defined.
Type S – RCD switch with a time delay of min. 40ms. No false switching off (e.g. due to atmospheric discharges)
Type G – RCD switch with time delay of min.10ms. No false switching off (e.g. due to atmospheric discharges)



you understand now up this time RCD brain. guy is zapped we switch off Standard immediately but i need some time S type wait 40 ms and den switch off

[coopec43]

more

Thank you so much for your excellent explanation of how RCDs work and how they are rated. I now know why I am still walking around!

[mroc]

Thanks more,
This is the one I have. And the greens are not only near, but inside the box. And the source AND the load side greens are connected, so all should be connected to the boat side of the galvanic isolator, contrary to someone suggesting shore side as it would effectively bypass the isolator.
Interesting is the fact that the ELCI trips only after any of the AC clients are turned on, even though there is nothing plugged in. I will experiment with isolating both hot and neutral leads on the inverter on the double breaker. Really appreciate your willingness to help.
All the best

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mroc

Thanks a lot.
I will investigate further. One suspect may be a sketchy shore power. But I don’t understand the deal about the green wires not being close to the ELCI. The manufacturer info is very descriptive requiring both green wires from source and from load leads interconnected and there is a grounding terminal inside the device. In fact, the device itself has a tiny green wire that is to be connected to the said terminal. BTW - pro electricians are great help if you can get them. And I can fix things I built in the middle of nowhere. If somebody did for me, not always.
Regards

Diagram? Can only help if you show what you have because your descriptions are not correct but I suspect reality may be better than the picture I got now.

Diagram.

[mroc]

s/v Jedi
Here is what I think I created. Note that most of the work shown there plus major rewiring of 12V including new Balamar alternator and external regulator was made by me and all worked from the first button pushed. This is the first setback so far.
[IMG]"D:\New Documents\Navigare\Alternator upgrade\ELCI diagram.docx"[/IMG]

[mroc]

I guess the image didn’t make it. Will try again

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by mroc

S/v Jedi,
Thanks for your critique. I would appreciate it more if it could be a more constructive one.
I don’t claim to be an electrician by trade, but thought that I could do this relatively simple installation after extensive consultations with the supplier, a friendly electrician, and following instructions in the manual.
Just to clarify, my grounding (green) from the shore power is on one terminal of the galvanic isolator and all other greens including the source coming to ELCI are on the boat side of the isolator. Any other hookups of the greens would effectively bypass the galvanic isolator and defeat its purpose.
If my blunders here are so obvious, could you list them for me.

Best regards

This is likely incorrect and potentially dangerous.

1) There should be no ground wired to ELCI in any fashion on either side. There should be no wiring of any kind going from the ELCI to the GI.
2) The shorepower ground should be wired to the shorepower side of the GI.
3) The boat ground should be wired to the boat side of the GI. Ideally this is just a single wire not a bunch of wires" as it can simply be a wire going from boat AC ground to the GI.

As others suggest you should provide a diagram because maybe it is wired correctly and you are just using wrong terms but wired exactly as you stated is absolutely wrong.

Note: in your prior post you linked to a file on your computer. Nobody but you can see it.

[mroc]

"D:\New Documents\Navigare\Alternator upgrade\ELCI diagram.docx"

[mroc]

Why inserting image is made so difficult here?

[Statistical]

The diagram looks correct. You have a ground loop but that is not causing your problem.

Likely you either have neutral and hot switched somewhere or neutral and ground.

If you have all outlets turned off and all hardwired devices either switched off (or disconnected if they have no breaker) and turn on master power breaker on the AC panel does the ELCI trip? If yes then the reversal is likely on the AC distribution panel itself. If not then it is one downstream branch circuit. Process of elimination turning them on one by one.

Note if you have any hard wired AC devices like a charger or inverter/charger which don't have a breaker/switch then disconnect them temporarily to avoid false positives.