Does a genset still make sense?

[team karst]

Originally Posted by deltaten

You could buy 8-10 Hondas for the cost of a new inboard diesel
They sip fuel! A gallon or two of gas, stored and vented safely/properly could last quite a while.
HTH

Our H2.2 kW experience is fuel out at 3am, running a 9k BTU. U know who had to refill the hot motor. It holds exactly one gallon.


Very glad to have a diesel fixed unit. Honda sits at home. True on your purchase cost analysis though.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by deltaten

At the exorbitant $$ outlets get for new diesel gensets, I'd go with the Honda portable..or two, mebbe even a larger model. Not to run the whole boat, mind you; but as back-up charging for those times sun or runs are short.
HTH

The ideal is to eliminate running ICE systems to generate electrical energy. This is achievable. The advances in alternative energy production and battery technology have made this possible, at least in areas of reasonable solar production.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Very wide, range of diverse equipment!! They shouldn’t be….
This is the cruisers forum, cruising boats , cruising people , cruising answers.
So we are talking about cruising and cruising means self sufficiency …cooking, moving, running systems…this is not the at the dock every 2nd day Forum.

Now if we have a problem with that, look at the heading of the app in the top left corner. That exactly what it says…. cruisers forum, cruising boats , cruising people , cruising answers.

Ok now, this means that we want batteries to last 4 days at anchor, we want to be able to charge them back up.
So who are you to specify a number like 4 days I hear you say… well that’s because I said so. It’s 4 days with no charging back up , whether solar or diesel. Of course the solar people will be boasting that by xx in the morning the batteries are full again…but I don’t care about this, partly because I can’t charge mine back up by xx as I only have 400w of panels….they’re a bit old now.
Charging up by xx in the morning is not important these days with lifepo4 but putting back what you took out is.
One day, the charging back up by xx in the morning cruisers will have no sun for 4 days and then they will revert to only charging while motoring or using the generator or using the motor while not motoring. So…I guess some people might still need it occasionally.

So when a boat uses propane instead of solar generated electrical power in the galley, they are not cruisers anymore? I didn’t see that one coming

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by team karst

Our H2.2 kW experience is fuel out at 3am, running a 9k BTU. U know who had to refill the hot motor. It holds exactly one gallon.

Very glad to have a diesel fixed unit. Honda sits at home. True on your purchase cost analysis though.

The idea is you run the A/C on inverter, then recharge batteries in the morning from solar. The generator isn’t used except during emergencies.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So when a boat uses propane instead of solar generated electrical power in the galley, they are not cruisers anymore? I didn’t see that one coming

Oh, Oh yea, them, I forgot about them, them with their decanting and adapters....
well ....I suppose they're still cruisers...

[Sabado]

We haven’t been to a dock in 9 months and that was to install our lithium system. It’s not unusual for us go well over a year at anchor and sail.

We were mainly at anchor last month and have been using water and power as freely as we do when on land. We do conserve on land as well.

2kw’ish of solar, 900ah (12v) lithium and a 9kw generator.

It’s been blistering hot so we have succumbed to running air conditioning while we’ve had guests onboard. Most of our generator runtime is in the 2-3 hour range at a time.

I feel like we’ve struck a good balance between conserving fuel (we sail, have an electric galley, minimize generator runtime) and space utilization for the solar panels. That said, more solar would be nice.

[team karst]

Last nites uninvited guests.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, not at all. Have you had this large array and had to remove it because of the issues you claim? I think not, I think it’s speculation.



We found zero impact, no weather helm, nothing. Maybe it even lifts the stern up from the water a bit.

I notice a difference with cruising canvas/Bimini deployed. Not weather helm, just not as fast upwind. So, solar on the Bimini is fine- but on my boat it’s enough to get me the wattage to replace my genset. And I’m not doing an arch with huge array like a huge wing on the stern.

See, you have a huge boat- awesome! - and can fit tons of solar and likely not notice.
But your boat size is a bit of an outlier from others posting here- and your assumption of “zero impact” doesn’t scale down. It’s not like power consumption is proportional to boat size . You need a certain critical mass of solar to get rid of genset or engine charging. And that solar array “square footage” obviously has to have a far greater impact the smaller the boat

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I notice a difference with cruising canvas/Bimini deployed. Not weather helm, just not as fast upwind. So, solar on the Bimini is fine- but on my boat it’s enough to get me the wattage to replace my genset. And I’m not doing an arch with huge array like a huge wing on the stern.

See, you have a huge boat- awesome! - and can fit tons of solar and likely not notice.
But your boat size is a bit of an outlier from others posting here- and your assumption of “zero impact” doesn’t scale down. It’s not like power consumption is proportional to boat size . You need a certain critical mass of solar to get rid of genset or engine charging. And that solar array “square footage” obviously has to have a far greater impact the smaller the boat

That’s not what I see on smaller boats with large arrays: they do just fine. There’s a whole range of them on YouTube posting videos with ocean crossings, bad weather etc. with large arrays and they do great.

Evidence shows that large arrays do fine.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That’s not what I see on smaller boats with large arrays: they do just fine. There’s a whole range of them on YouTube posting videos with ocean crossings, bad weather etc. with large arrays and they do great.

Evidence shows that large arrays do fine.

Sure, as long as you don't have to make miles upwind.

Windage of all kinds has a big effect on upwind performance. Solar arrays aren't as bad in this on cats because they heel less (presenting less area to the wind), but a big array on a mono is, aerodynamically speaking, really ugly, when the mono is heeled.

Making miles upwind is disproportionately laborious so most cruisers just don't really do it -- they wait for better wind or use the motor or choose a different destination. In those cases solar is not really a problem.

And different boats and rigs (and sails) are more or less optimized for sailing upwind. You have a ketch with a shallow keel so not really optimized for sailing upwind, so you would inherently care less than some others. We are somewhat better for upwind work with a deeper bulb keel, carbon sails, etc. (although much worse than a true racing boat which have high aspect keels etc.), and we do some racing, and sail in waters where you often don't have much choice about going upwind, so upwind performance is more important for us than for some others. Therefore, no solar for us.

Horses for courses.

My previous boat was 100% solar powered with no generator and we loved it. No doubt this is the way to go if you can afford the windage. We unfortunately cannot. A heavy duty low speed generator is a good second choice for power.


For the same reasons we went solar-free on my friend's Discovery 67, the one we crossed the Atlantic with last year, and which is a real demon upwind (among cruising boats, at least).

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure, as long as you don't have to make miles upwind.

Windage of all kinds has a big effect on upwind performance. Solar arrays aren't as bad in this on cats because they heel less (presenting less area to the wind), but a big array on a mono is, aerodynamically speaking, really ugly, when the mono is heeled.

Making miles upwind is disproportionately laborious so most cruisers just don't really do it -- they wait for better wind or use the motor or choose a different destination. In those cases solar is not really a problem.

And different boats and rigs (and sails) are more or less optimized for sailing upwind. You have a ketch with a shallow keel so not really optimized for sailing upwind, so you would inherently care less than some others. We are somewhat better for upwind work with a deeper bulb keel, carbon sails, etc. (although much worse than a true racing boat which have high aspect keels etc.), and we do some racing, and sail in waters where you often don't have much choice about going upwind, so upwind performance is more important for us than for some others. Therefore, no solar for us.

Horses for courses.

My previous boat was 100% solar powered with no generator and we loved it. No doubt this is the way to go if you can afford the windage. We unfortunately cannot. A heavy duty low speed generator is a good second choice for power.

For the same reasons we went solar-free on my friend's Discovery 67, the one we crossed the Atlantic with last year, and which is a real demon upwind (among cruising boats, at least).

All this rhetoric is based on opinion, not evidence. Most monohulls with large arrays, like us, also have a dinghy hoisted in davits underneath it. When they leave out the array, the dinghy is still there with exactly the same “problem”.

Until someone can demonstrate that a large array is a problem for upwind sailing, I will say that there is no problem on the basis of my own experience as well as on what I see on other boats.

That said, even with Jedi being a ketch, on upwind sailing, we still toy with sloops under 50’ length and some, like Oyster, don’t even catch us when they are 60’ because of bad design decisions and then on a reach we obliterate them all. With large solar array and dinghy in davits.

There has been nobody reporting a problem with a large array interfering with upwind sailing performance, just opinions from those who are lacking on solar.

[Fuss]

I also have a prop shaft alternator … 180w at 5 kts and 450 at 6…. And much more in storms.
Also, it can help out while motoring …and then it does something like 1500w.
But I still would like 800w at least of solar.
Hey, how much do you think it affects my upwind performance…

[MACooper]

Just remember that engine manufacturers have a maximum load that can be applied to the crankshaft pulley. A large alternator can exceed this by a large margin. Also, cooling the alternator will most likely be a problem.

[lifeofreilly57]

Where do I start.
All motorized equipment requires maintenance, generators, main propulsion, small generators, etc.
We have a 6kw northern lights generator that came with the boat, it was originally used for all power/charging needs including the refrigeration. Whe on anchor, which is 90% of the time when cruising it's no fun to have to run the generator regularly to charge batteries, same goes for the engine, not to mention having to get fuel on a regular basis.
Our engine also has a 200 amp alternator, but again, it only loads the motor on a light load since you have to use a custom charging curve to prevent burning out the alternator when charging lithium batteries.
Our 1000 watts of solar completely charges our bank when we're at anchor, and at sea, even during passages. The only time we run the generator now is when we're running the watermaker, which is on 220vac. I also have an inverter/charger that can charge at 80 amps.
The generator is a nice backup, but if I were starting from scratch I'm not sure I'd install one.
It depends on what your overall power need are.
You need to determine your power needs first, then decide what's required to maintain your power bank. We have more traditional 20 ton cruising boat, so the weight of the generator is not that big a deal, if I were on a lightweight cat it'd be a different deal. Also, cats have a wider stern where you can mount much more solar on an arch.
Our boat has pretty efficient power consumption needs, all led lighting, 12v refrigeration, we don't have a tv (although the kids would love it), the water maker is 220vac and our charging needs for devices are well within the capacity of our 900 amp lithium bank, on most days our batteries are charged by 10am, cloudy days by 1pm.
Now, if you have an induction stove and electric oven, a wide screen tv, 12 volt watermaker, multiple devices, multiple refrigeration units, etc, your needs would be completely different. But those systems bring a whole host of maintenance needs with them, you trade one set of headaches for another.
First, figure out your energy needs, where you'll be cruising, what your level of maintenance ability is, then decide on your equipment needs.
Do I like having the generator as a back up? For sure, it also comes in handy when doing maintenance, I can run multiple sanders and devices, I can also run the hot water heater, which is a luxury not necessarily needed in warm climates but nice to have when in northern climates.

[merrydolphin]

I have had 5 serious cruising boats over the years and only one had a dedicated diesel genset, the boat came with 110V hold over plate fridge/freezer. And 110V 20gph water maker. I had to have 110 everyday to charge the fridge and batteries. 6 t-105’s. Rather than run that big 7.5 KW Onan, I got a Honda 2000. Ran it everyday for the 5 yrs I had that boat. Only used the genset for the water maker. Ran it once every 2wks to fill the 200 gals of fresh water tanks. We did a lot of Scuba and needed the water. The Honda took care of everything else, every day with only a little over a hour run time per day. The first 10-15 min it worked hard, then tapered off to an idle to finish. Never had a problem! I kept in under a deck box on the aft deck. I also had a Scuba tank compressor that was powered by a Honda 5.5 hp motor. Again, ran the crap out of the engine for years with out problem. Just oil changes.

So yes sir, I do agree with you. Loved that little Honda 2000. PS. The boat also came with an old, and I mean old Raytheon Radar. It has a round green CRT screen with a rubber hood, (like in the movies with the navy). I figured, I’ll put modern in when it dies. IT NEVER DIED ha ha. All this old gear just kept working so I went by “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Same with the good ol’ Perkins 4-236 diesel. After I sold the boat, a Cal ll-46. The new owner went from Cabo San Lucas to Hawaii, to Vancouver, to South Pacific and back to Vancouver over a Period of several years. All of that crazy original gear still working!