Alternator regulators Balmar or Mark Grasser

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Im leaning towards these https://www.victronenergy.com/batter...tery-isolators

The description is very lacking in details but it appears that it is a battery combiner using FETs (field effect transistors) instead of relays, that they are trying to explain as functioning like a diode isolator. FETs don't have diodes in the conductive path so no voltage drop, but no blockage to reverse flow either IIRC. They could sense that and prevent the condition - or not. The point is that it isn't obvious what they are doing, and it may solve your problem but I would want to check first.

It seems to me that with a combiner the relative size of the battery banks, and the alternator, could make a big difference. The basic combiners are usually rigged permanently to the engine start battery and then add the other bank, or vice-versa. The smart regulators may have the ability of removing the first battery from charging, thus avoiding your problem, but again the documentation is frustratingly scant. You might look at the ProIsoCharge from ProMariner - it might be a better choice.

Greg

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

The description is very lacking in details but it appears that it is a battery combiner using FETs (field effect transistors) instead of relays, that they are trying to explain as functioning like a diode isolator. FETs don't have diodes in the conductive path so no voltage drop, but no blockage to reverse flow either IIRC. They could sense that and prevent the condition - or not. The point is that it isn't obvious what they are doing, and it may solve your problem but I would want to check first.

It seems to me that with a combiner the relative size of the battery banks, and the alternator, could make a big difference. The basic combiners are usually rigged permanently to the engine start battery and then add the other bank, or vice-versa. The smart regulators may have the ability of removing the first battery from charging, thus avoiding your problem, but again the documentation is frustratingly scant. You might look at the ProIsoCharge from ProMariner - it might be a better choice.

Greg

Sorry cant work out how to paste the url here from my phone. But if you have a look at Pacific Yacht Systems most recent YT video, posted yesterday, 'How to design an electrical system'. Jeff describes their use pretty well, at around the 50 min point. Its a bit lengthy but worth a watch.

[john61ct]

No the inrush current thing is a myth, ProIsoCharge are an over-engineered waste of money.

Again, put sources direct to House, keeping Starter topped, up takes very little, KISS

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...mbiner.138313/

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by john61ct

No the inrush current thing is a myth, ProIsoCharge are an over-engineered waste of money.

Again, put sources direct to House, keeping Starter topped, up takes very little, KISS

https://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...mbiner.138313/

Did someone mention ProIsoCharge?
That's an interesting opinion on inrush being a myth.
Me, I dont know, but the guys saying that seem like they are quite credible and experienced.

[mlydon]

It sounds like your problem is that the VT is controlling the charge relay improperly, correct? I’m not familiar with the unit you have, but it sounds like it has a dedicated solenoid- control output.... If you simply replace the solenoid with a modern one like blue seas acr, that has its OWN sensing circuit, it would resolve your issue, assuming the vr actually charges your batteries as it should, without having to spring for a new vr.

Matt

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by mlydon

It sounds like your problem is that the VT is controlling the charge relay improperly, correct? I’m not familiar with the unit you have, but it sounds like it has a dedicated solenoid- control output.... If you simply replace the solenoid with a modern one like blue seas acr, that has its OWN sensing circuit, it would resolve your issue, assuming the vr actually charges your batteries as it should, without having to spring for a new vr.



Matt

I’ve already purchased the replacement VR, I fear that a failure on one part is only going to cascade down the line. I may take the old one to work and see if I can isolate the failed component and repair it, but don’t have high hopes.

[john61ct]

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/nosurge2.html

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by john61ct

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/nosurge2.html

These guys have a different point of view-
https://youtu.be/tdur_Ln-9cE

Check around 41.30.

I'm pretty sure they both cant be right. They sell ACRs too so Im not sure what motive they would have for saying something not correct.

However they are talking about slightly different scenareos. The Balmar article is talking about starting fires. Maybe that is a myth?
The PYS guys, who from the size of their operation and experience sound reasonable are talking more about blown protection fuses unkowingly letting a battery get completely run down.

I dont know the answers, but some more information to mull over. Im sure everyone will come to your own answers.

Whats an electrical discussion without some controversy eh.

Carry on.

[john61ct]

That was just one source, hundreds of posts and emails from experts I trust agree.

Different with LFP's low resistance, but lead-to-lead is basically self-regulating, any high currents are very brief.

Of course wiring needs to be robust and appropriately sized, but there is no need for heroic measures to be designed into the VSR.

The most robust ones like Blue Sea ML- models are targeted to Starter loads, can exceed 600A, but again usually only briefly.

[CarinaPDX]

I don't see that there has to be that one or the other is purely wrong. This inrush concern is clearly based on some inrush current occurring, just not the monster current one might imagine. It is quite possible in some circumstances that it could blow a fuse. It depends on the right balance of amperage.

The PYS guy points out that the alternator should be sized to at least 10% of the battery Ah rating, but many installations don't meet that standard. If there is a large battery bank, say 1000Ah, and a small alternator, say 50A, and the ACR is rated at 50A and fused to 65A, the inrush current might be enough to blow the fuse whereas a 120A alternator and ACR fused at 150A would not likely be an issue. Now I can't be certain that this actually happens in practice but it is certainly less likely if the various parts of the system are correctly sized to each other.

I do tend to forget the simple solution of an alternator directly charging the house batteries, with a charging connection from house to starting battery. Before battery combiners (when I built my boat) this wasn't an option. Using a simple combiner, closed when the house voltage rises under charge, can result in either over- or under-charging, although that in practice may not shorten the battery life substantially. But with the newer DC-DC battery chargers the start battery should be well cared for. It isn't obvious that using a smart DC-DC battery charger is any less complex or more reliable than using a smart battery combiner, although a failure of the combiner would potentially affect the charging of both batteries while the DC-DC charger failing would likely only affect the starting battery. So yes, I agree that it is a very good solution, probably even the best.

As far as something being "over-engineered", I feel that is in the same category as "perfectionist". IMHO there is no such thing as doing too much engineering or too perfect a job - it is called craftsmanship. I also realize that the best engineering often results in the simplest solutions. And sometimes simple solutions may not be the best, but may be "good enough" and have the benefits of simplicity and economy. More complex solutions have to be considered in light of the improvements they bring. I personally feel that the smart combiners bring enough of an improvement to justify their increased complexity and cost over plain ACRs and diodes; YMMV.

Greg

[john61ct]

Sure if you have some fancy expensive or sensitive-chemistry batt other than House,

or can't afford a low enough gauge wire connection over long distance,

DCDC is a great way to go.

But all combiners are voltage-following (maybe some fixed V drop),

so even the fanciest ones deliver none of the real benefits that DCDC units do.

[NYSail]

I love my balmar mc614 but hear good things about mg products. I also have a blue sea Acr....... like the simplicity.

Greg

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by john61ct

That was just one source, hundreds of posts and emails from experts I trust agree.

Different with LFP's low resistance, but lead-to-lead is basically self-regulating, any high currents are very brief.

Of course wiring needs to be robust and appropriately sized, but there is no need for heroic measures to be designed into the VSR.

The most robust ones like Blue Sea ML- models are targeted to Starter loads, can exceed 600A, but again usually only briefly.

Im not sure what VSR you are talking about with heroic measures. The alternative I saw suggested were the Victron FET Battery Isolators.

I think I mentioned I have BlueSea ACR. But if I was looking to buy one now, I would lean towards the Victron. PYS does a lot of boats and sees a lot of issues.
How much of an issue this stuff is, or isnt, Im not sure. But I cant see a potential downside with the Victrons and erring on the safe side.

But good to see you have such faith, as I said your boat your call.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I don't see that there has to be that one or the other is purely wrong. This inrush concern is clearly based on some inrush current occurring, just not the monster current one might imagine. It is quite possible in some circumstances that it could blow a fuse. It depends on the right balance of amperage.

The PYS guy points out that the alternator should be sized to at least 10% of the battery Ah rating, but many installations don't meet that standard. If there is a large battery bank, say 1000Ah, and a small alternator, say 50A, and the ACR is rated at 50A and fused to 65A, the inrush current might be enough to blow the fuse whereas a 120A alternator and ACR fused at 150A would not likely be an issue. Now I can't be certain that this actually happens in practice but it is certainly less likely if the various parts of the system are correctly sized to each other.

I do tend to forget the simple solution of an alternator directly charging the house batteries, with a charging connection from house to starting battery. Before battery combiners (when I built my boat) this wasn't an option. Using a simple combiner, closed when the house voltage rises under charge, can result in either over- or under-charging, although that in practice may not shorten the battery life substantially. But with the newer DC-DC battery chargers the start battery should be well cared for. It isn't obvious that using a smart DC-DC battery charger is any less complex or more reliable than using a smart battery combiner, although a failure of the combiner would potentially affect the charging of both batteries while the DC-DC charger failing would likely only affect the starting battery. So yes, I agree that it is a very good solution, probably even the best.

As far as something being "over-engineered", I feel that is in the same category as "perfectionist". IMHO there is no such thing as doing too much engineering or too perfect a job - it is called craftsmanship. I also realize that the best engineering often results in the simplest solutions. And sometimes simple solutions may not be the best, but may be "good enough" and have the benefits of simplicity and economy. More complex solutions have to be considered in light of the improvements they bring. I personally feel that the smart combiners bring enough of an improvement to justify their increased complexity and cost over plain ACRs and diodes; YMMV.

Greg

Yes the point he was making about the alternator not being at least 10% of batt bank after people increase their batt bank capacity. Not really neccessarily related to the parallel combiner (alleged) inrush issue.
But yes another factor contributing to why some batt banks dont get charged enough and murdered early.
As you say though its always nice to try and get as much info as we can when we are trying to design our systems. Even some different points of view, which are scoffed at by others.
Some people seem very defensive of their beliefs. It reminds me of where I am working at the moment where there are a lot of people killed over religious beliefs. I wont mention the country but lets just say it ends in 'stan'.
Personally i think life is too short to take anything (well maybe my boat) that serious.

[bcboomer]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

Something is going on here....

First, VSR Alternator Regulator

Now, Welcome To Wakespeed Offshore

Bill

In theory this looks really good but Wakespeed Offshore doesn't have any contact information that I can find. No email, no phone. Might be great but how would one get any support?
I did find a phone number in the installation instructions but that number doesn't respond to messages.
Maybe these guys have given up on it and are just selling off what they have in stock on ebait.