450: Broken bulkheads

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i am engineer too

and i know there is no substitute for experience.

overrated.

I never said anything about engineers
I was talking about real life Multihull designer's
Ones who have real life experiences
And boats that don't fall apart

The likes of
Crowther
Pescott
Schionning
Arber
Simpson
Chamberlain
Tenant
Hughes
White
Clissold
Kelsall
Hill
Given
And a whole lot of others.

Perhaps you have heard of them?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I never said anything about engineers
I was talking about real life Multihull designer's
Ones who have real life experiences
And boats that don't fall apart

The likes of
Crowther
Pescott
Schionning
Arber
Simpson
Chamberlain
Tenant
Hughes
White
Clissold
Kelsall
Hill
Given
And a whole lot of others.

Perhaps you have heard of them?

ok i see. Yes I have heard of them but never sailed them. Probably because they were not in charter. Closest I came to Crowther when sailed Catana 43 for a week.

Sorry, I have no idea how much issues other boats apart from lagoon have. But it seems there are 2 clear branches of thought in cats world, one is french and the other is australian. We tried both and french won because of boat's better sun protection, it is that simple.

[rspott]

Originally Posted by Kamen

Certified by the same guys who got it wrong in the first place?

Do you have a better suggestion?

[Kamen]

Originally Posted by rspott

Do you have a better suggestion?

Yes. Full transparency. Certifications are worthless, including CE, as this debacle clearly demonstrates.

Find the root cause of the design flaw. Publish the structural analysis that they used to design this boat. Clearly state what was wrong with the model and how the math should be corrected. Run the corrected model over all Lagoon boats. Proactively address any other boats that fail the corrected math. Design an overkill fix. Recall all boats shown to be vulnerable. Compensate the owners for lost use time. Guarantee the structural integrity of Lagoon catamarans for 10 years.

That is how you win back trust.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Kamen

Yes. Full transparency. Certifications are worthless, including CE, as this debacle clearly demonstrates.

Find the root cause of the design flaw. Publish the structural analysis that they used to design this boat. Clearly state what was wrong with the model and how the math should be corrected. Run the corrected model over all Lagoon boats. Proactively address any other boats that fail the corrected math. Design an overkill fix. Recall all boats shown to be vulnerable. Compensate the owners for lost use time. Guarantee the structural integrity of Lagoon catamarans for 10 years.

That is how you win back trust.

you think this is design flaw. Lagoon thinks this is normal wear and tear. I think is normal wear and tear as well (slightly twisted bulkheads, not broken ones). But then there must have been good reason for breaking them as already discussed. After 12 years first 450 boast build, suddenly comes this hurricane guy and now we have disaster magnified by social media fear mongering posts on platform that anyone can say anything regardless of level of lies.

[Kamen]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you think this is design flaw. Lagoon thinks this is normal wear and tear. I think is normal wear and tear as well (slightly twisted bulkheads, not broken ones). But then there must have been good reason for breaking them as already discussed. After 12 years first 450 boast build, suddenly comes this hurricane guy and now we have disaster magnified by social media fear mongering posts on platform that anyone can say anything regardless of level of lies.

Yeah, good luck with that theory.

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you think this is design flaw. Lagoon thinks this is normal wear and tear. I think is normal wear and tear as well (slightly twisted bulkheads, not broken ones).

I have a boat that is twice as old as the oldest Lagoon 450, and has sailed around the world--TWICE, and been through hurricanes, and had all of the minor and major misfortunes that can befall a boat that has sailed near 200,000 miles. None of its bulkheads are "slightly twisted." If they were, I'd be in a panic, and would not sail it until they were fixed.

If you think that "slightly twisted" bulkheads on well built boats are "normal wear and tear", you are misinformed.

If you go and look at what Lagoon actually wrote, they are not claiming this is "normal wear and tear" at all. They are blaming the owners of the 450's for operating them in a "manner that does not comply with the recommendations for use." (Whatever THAT means!) Lagoon says the problem affects about 5% of the 450 fleet, but none of the other boats. I guess the 450 owners are a special batch of dullards... (No, I do not believe that... it is sarcasm!)

You think it is "normal" that 5% of well designed and well built boats have deformed bulkheads at this age. That's not a fact, that is an opinion. It is certainly an opinion that you are entitled to, but it is not an opinion that I would share.

I want to be clear, I do not think this proves that all Lagoons are crap, or that the brand is crap. Mistakes happen, even to the best design teams. What matters now is how Lagoon responds to the issue.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I think is normal wear and tear as well (slightly twisted bulkheads, not broken ones).

Hmmm. I don't know one experienced engineer, including me, that would look at those skinny, twisted "bulkheads" in the context of a 45 foot, 17 ton GRP multihull without a shaking of the head at the obvious under-design. No grandmas needed.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^

Good post, BillKny. No twisted, collapsed or compromised bulkheads in our boat with nearly as many miles under her keel in her 31 years of service.

"Normal wear and tear... inappropriate usage..." Pfft.

Jim

Jim

[more]

Originally Posted by BillKny

I have a boat that is twice as old as the oldest Lagoon 450, and has sailed around the world--TWICE, and been through hurricanes, and had all of the minor and major misfortunes that can befall a boat that has sailed near 200,000 miles. None of its bulkheads are "slightly twisted." If they were, I'd be in a panic, and would not sail it until they were fixed.

If you think that "slightly twisted" bulkheads on well built boats are "normal wear and tear", you are misinformed.

If you go and look at what Lagoon actually wrote, they are not claiming this is "normal wear and tear" at all. They are blaming the owners of the 450's for operating them in a "manner that does not comply with the recommendations for use." (Whatever THAT means!) Lagoon says the problem affects about 5% of the 450 fleet, but none of the other boats. I guess the 450 owners are a special batch of dullards... (No, I do not believe that... it is sarcasm!)

You think it is "normal" that 5% of well designed and well built boats have deformed bulkheads at this age. .

https://youtu.be/rHlEXn37dVg?t=24

https://youtu.be/89Mw6L69b6Y?t=16

https://youtu.be/TVe8GwmVrls

[rspott]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you think this is design flaw. Lagoon thinks this is normal wear and tear. I think is normal wear and tear as well (slightly twisted bulkheads, not broken ones). But then there must have been good reason for breaking them as already discussed. After 12 years first 450 boast build, suddenly comes this hurricane guy and now we have disaster magnified by social media fear mongering posts on platform that anyone can say anything regardless of level of lies.

I had the same thoughts when I first saw Colin's videos. Then I opened up my bulkheads. I was shocked and dismayed. Unfortunately, this is not fear mongering.

We are now at over 10% of the production run of Lagoon 450 boats. If you were to purchase a vehicle that had a 10% chance of the frame bending or breaking, would you purchase that vehicle?

[rspott]

Originally Posted by Kamen

Yes. Full transparency. Certifications are worthless, including CE, as this debacle clearly demonstrates.

Find the root cause of the design flaw. Publish the structural analysis that they used to design this boat. Clearly state what was wrong with the model and how the math should be corrected. Run the corrected model over all Lagoon boats. Proactively address any other boats that fail the corrected math. Design an overkill fix. Recall all boats shown to be vulnerable. Compensate the owners for lost use time. Guarantee the structural integrity of Lagoon catamarans for 10 years.

That is how you win back trust.

I believe Lagoon is trying this route now. It takes quite a bit for a company this size to (sorry for the phrase) turn the ship.

I do not know about proactive responses as of now. We are trying to help them understand that proactive is the best response. There are cultural issues at play as well.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by cyan

Hmmm. I don't know one experienced engineer, including me, that would look at those skinny, twisted "bulkheads" in the context of a 45 foot, 17 ton GRP multihull without a shaking of the head at the obvious under-design. No grandmas needed.

In all the posts and forums I have read I have not come across one proffessional engineer, shipwright or other expert who has actually said A)This is my experience B) I am a qualified person in this field C) I have done the engineering and here is the attached details of of what is required for the alleged issue.

There are many engineers in the world for different fields. If you are so confident of your comments please supply the reason why the bulkheads are failing, the fix with stress calcs and what feild of engineering you deal with.

There are so many opinions out there with "no fact" only hearsay, I heard and supposition that can only lead to concerns by Lagoon owners. It is clear that there are L450 out there with damage. How that damage occured is still not clear by any stretch of the imagination.


Ozsailer
Lagoon 440

[rspott]

Originally Posted by BillKny

I want to be clear, I do not think this proves that all Lagoons are crap, or that the brand is crap. Mistakes happen, even to the best design teams. What matters now is how Lagoon responds to the issue.

This is a very well reasoned statement. Thank you sir.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

In all the posts and forums I have read I have not come across one proffessional engineer, shipwright or other expert who has actually said A)This is my experience B) I am a qualified person in this field C) I have done the engineering and here is the attached details of of what is required for the alleged issue.


There are many engineers in the world for different fields. If you are so confident of your comments please supply the reason why the bulkheads are failing, the fix with stress calcs and what feild of engineering you deal with.

I listed multiple designers above who have hundreds of vessels out there that get driven a lot harder than any lagoon would have who have not had major fail like lagoon is having with their bulkheads.

Simply looking at how the ones that work are constructed , coved and glassed in will tell you why one works and will always work and why the other has not.

I am a boatbuilder by trade
I have built and worked on many multihulls over the years
I have never seen such crap work as what I see in some of the bulkhead fail pics shown on these lagoon threads. I thought I had but lagoon has lowered that bar considerably

Bulkheads butted together, no sign of adhesive, no butt straps or scarfs and tabbed in with snot and no glass.
Has the hull even been sanded ?
Still can't believe what I am seeing.