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**boatman61** · 21-05-2021, 08:07

This is not a new problem, I reported to the owner what I considered a potential major problem 3 years ago in a Lagoon I delivered USA to Spain where there was an ominous (to me) thud and creaking at the stbd aft beam area and the fwd port beam every so often as the boat flexed in a lumpy sea.
Not experienced this before on other Lagoons of similar size or smaller.

more · 21-05-2021, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillKny

What defect??? Are you serious?

How about a 45 foot catamaran that is sold as an ocean-going yacht with no navigation restrictions but can't actually sail across an ocean without risking major structural failure.

To me, that REALLY counts as a defect!!!!!

Now, it is true that there MIGHT not be a defect...

It MIGHT be that the owners of over 5% of the Lagoon 450 fleet found unique ways to damage their boats, that owners of other Lagoon models have not found.
It MIGHT be that a collapsing bulkhead that supports the mast isn't a safety issue.
It MIGHT be that every one of these boats with a bad bulkhead was in a hurricane.
It MIGHT be true that there is an Easter Bunny...

But do let's give Lagoon a bit of slack, for a bit. Their lawyers are running the communications, and that is the way of the world. What is really important is not what the lawyers say, but how they really take care of owners.

Despite what the lawyers say, the best finite element analysis is not proof of a good ocean going boat design. There is just no way to accurately predict the most severe loads that can be imposed by an angry ocean.

The traditional design process is to calculate the loads very carefully, then add a large safety factor and build it stronger than you think it will ever need to be. Test it in the real world. Then, if you have no failures, make it lighter. Repeat until a failure appears, and go back a step. This is the way yacht scantlings have been sized for generations. If you skip, or reduce, the safety factor, you do so at risk.

This iterative process is especially true of multihull design where weight is so critical. I don't necessarily fault Lagoon for taking the process a step too far... if they commit to a fix for ALL of the boats affected.

People who have spent the best part of a million dollars for a boat are not unreasonable to expect service like that.

There is going to be a lot of noise around this topic, and a lot it will come from people who don't really know the current status of things.

Who sale to you Lagoon 450 is this CONSTRUCTION NAVALE BORDEAUX, SA with capital of €3,487,500, Bordeaux Registre du Commerce et des Sociétés number 342 012 390

or some other local company broker who have a contract for sale catamaran with 30% profit but have an obligation for warranty case.
Sorry, you must contact the person who sale the yacht to you. CONSTRUCTION NAVALE BORDEAUX doesn't have any contract with you, CONSTRUCTION NAVALE BORDEAUX can only return money that you pay on bank account CONSTRUCTION NAVALE BORDEAUX company and this is 0€
and if the dealer has complained the only court is in BORDEAUX.Peole bay boat in France is a different story, this customer is protected with France law.

ReneJK · 21-05-2021, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by more

Selling an a vessel with a known defect .
What defect only boat with hurricane damage, and ocean sailing have this issue.
from this 1000 Lagoon producer 60 % maybe more sail in Croatia, Greece and turkey . what I know don't have this problem.

Hardly true
Quote from a broker and a fleet manager in Greece (2 diff people) before they knew what the cause was

‘80% of the boats I have sold have the issue of bulging out panels below the mast and doors that are no longer straight’

‘All the boats in the fleet I look after have one or more of the issues that you saw’

None of these boats had the cosmetic panels removed yet to have an actual look at the bulkheads

more · 21-05-2021, 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReneJK

Hardly true
Quote from a broker and a fleet manager in Greece (2 diff people) before they knew what the cause was

‘80% of the boats I have sold have the issue of bulging out panels below the mast and doors that are no longer straight’

‘All the boats in the fleet I look after have one or more of the issues that you saw’

None of these boats had the cosmetic panels removed yet to have an actual look at the bulkheads

who is hauling cat is this be lincesed contractor
do you empty boat prior haul boat
do you make step-by-step plan to haul
do you in warranty time for hull 5- year use lagoon lincesed contractor for maintenance.(if not warranty is only 1 year
sorry your boat is out of warranty 5 years,your boat is for recycle
and many other 1000 questions lagoon lawyer ask.

i am lucky because come Covid and I did not bay Lagoon 40-42. I am sorry for your situation. You must fight but this not be easy war.
Lagoon 40-42 is not affected but I think all used lagoon boats in the future not be an easy task for sale.

ReneJK · 21-05-2021, 11:31

@more

As you are aware the EU warranty and consumer protection goes ‘a little further’ than 1 year , no matter what the manufacturer says

EU warranty goes as far as pro-rated deduction starting at year 3 (or 5 depending on the type of goods) and is thentypically the same as normal depreciation , so even after 7-10 years the dealer might stil be on the hook for a portion of the repair costs *if* the failure can be attributed to a manufacturing defect

I have never seen anything about having to make a detailed ‘haul out plan’ or even ‘emptying the boat’ in the lagoon or beneteau user manual ? But I could be wrong as I have not memorized it

sv Grateful · 21-05-2021, 11:33

Lot's of Lagoon bashing here.

I don't own a Lagoon myself but am intimately acquainted with a Lagoon 400 that was found to have a serious structural problem with the shelf that supports the fresh water tanks.

Even though the boat was out of warranty, when informed of the problem, Lagoon dispatched a two man team with tools and supplies to effect an excellent repair over the course of five days. The VERY particular owner was well pleased with the repair.

Why don't we all take a breath, calm down, and see how Lagoon actually address the problem. They have a huge investment in their reputation and the resources to protect it. I expect that they will come up with a good solution to this issue.

more · 21-05-2021, 12:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReneJK

@more

As you are aware the EU warranty and consumer protection goes ‘a little further’ than 1 year , no matter what the manufacturer says

EU warranty goes as far as pro-rated deduction starting at year 3 (or 5 depending on the type of goods) and is thentypically the same as normal depreciation , so even after 7-10 years the dealer might stil be on the hook for a portion of the repair costs *if* the failure can be attributed to a manufacturing defect

I have never seen anything about having to make a detailed ‘haul out plan’ or even ‘emptying the boat’ in the lagoon or beneteau user manual ? But I could be wrong as I have not memorized it

new Fiberglass Boat sold in EU and operated under normal, non-commercial use to be free of defects in material and workmanship
during the period of 2 year.Duration of coverage
This Limited Warranty provides recreational use customers (not commercial users) with
coverage for two (2) years from the date the product is first sold, or the date on which the
product is first put into service, whichever occurs first. Additionally, we guarantee the HULL (up
to and including the hull-to-deck joint, but not the deck) against STRUCTURAL (not cosmetic)
failure which is caused by a defect in factory materials or workmanship and occurs within 3 years of the date of delivery. Structural failure shall mean a substantial failure in the product’s HULL which causes the product to be unfit or unsafe for general use as a pleasure craft under normal operating conditions. This includes the hull and all the internal structural components,
which are bonded to the hull, such as stringers, bulkheads, transom as well as the hull-to-deck joint. Hardware items -- even if attached to the hull Commercial use, which voids the warranty, is defined as any work or employment related use of the product, or any use of the product, which generates income, for any part of the warranty period, even if the product is only occasionally used for such purposes.
In charter we have a warranty only sometimes from delivery France to med port but usually no warranty.

BillKny · 21-05-2021, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by sv Grateful

Lot's of Lagoon bashing here.

I don't own a Lagoon myself but am intimately acquainted with a Lagoon 400 that was found to have a serious structural problem with the shelf that supports the fresh water tanks.

Even though the boat was out of warranty, when informed of the problem, Lagoon dispatched a two man team with tools and supplies to effect an excellent repair over the course of five days. The VERY particular owner was well pleased with the repair.

Why don't we all take a breath, calm down, and see how Lagoon actually address the problem. They have a huge investment in their reputation and the resources to protect it. I expect that they will come up with a good solution to this issue.

Lagoon has in the past addressed issues with construction and design problems well, as far as I have heard.

In this case they would have so much less pushback if they were honest in their communications instead of accusing owners who have reported the issue of abusing their boats.

Maybe they could have said something like:

Quote:

We have reports there might be an issue. We do not yet know the extent of the problem, or the cause. We are looking into it. Once we understand and can comment with knowledge and understanding we will be in touch with our owners directly to let them know what we have found. Any owners or other interested parties with specific questions can contact us directly.

It has the advantage of being 100% honest, and supportive. Doesn't promise anything they can't deliver on, and acknowledges the uncertainties in the early phases of an investigation like this. It doesn't accept blame on the brand, or throw blame on the owners.

But heck, I'm just an engineer. What do I know about PR and liability law???

Simi 60 · 21-05-2021, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I would not even consider buying such a vessel at this time, either new or second hand. Too many alternatives without endemic and serious problems are on the market.

And I'd be pretty wary of Lagoon's "official" repair scheme when (if) it arrives. After all, these are the guys who are bleating "it's not a problem, the design is good, don't worry, be happy ( and please don't call your lawyer).

Jim

This ^^^^^

Having been a boatbuilder a lot of my life and having built and worked on many multihulls, many lightly built, hard raced (flogged) and decades old and without any bulkhead issues, the pictures of what Lagoon "claims" to be bulkheads is ridiculous.

For a boat as heavy as they are I would have thought the "things that hold it together" would at least have been indestructible - it's not hard.

I have seen engines arrive for install in better constructed packing crates.

more · 21-05-2021, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simi 60

This ^^^^^

Having been a boatbuilder

For a boat as heavy as they are I would have thought the "things that hold it together" would at least have been indestructible - it's not hard.

I have seen engines arrive for install in better constructed packing crates.

o yes, Chinese engines have better constructed packing crates.
Lagoon and his weight,+ genset+food for 1-2 months , cloths for all year is simply to have go on rough sea maybe carbon bulkhead manufactured help.
when you come in Lagoon 45 - 52 - 55 simply this is not boat, this is house.
master cabin is bigger from the 90% Japanese condo.

Simi 60 · 21-05-2021, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by more

o yes, Chinese engines have better constructed packing crates.
Lagoon and his weight,+ genset+food for 1-2 months , cloths for all year is simply to have go on rough sea maybe carbon bulkhead manufactured help.
when you come in Lagoon 45 - 52 - 55 simply this is not boat, this is house.
master cabin is bigger from the 90% Japanese condo.

Not sure what you are trying to say but they need not be carbon

A simple ply, timber truss, ply drum bulkhead with proper coves and fibreglass tabbed to the hull has stood the test of punishnent and time on multiple designs.

The things that hold a boat together is not the place to cheap out

Kamen · 21-05-2021, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspott

This will result in a certified repair that will stand up during the future sale of your vessel or future insurance surveys. "Here is the Lagoon certificate, things were repaired properly."

Certified by the same guys who got it wrong in the first place?

arsenelupiga · 22-05-2021, 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simi 60

This ^^^^^

Having been a boatbuilder a lot of my life and having built and worked on many multihulls, many lightly built, hard raced (flogged) and decades old and without any bulkhead issues, the pictures of what Lagoon "claims" to be bulkheads is ridiculous.

For a boat as heavy as they are I would have thought the "things that hold it together" would at least have been indestructible - it's not hard.

I have seen engines arrive for install in better constructed packing crates.

you have point but easiest to reinforce would be to simply put two bulkheads together. As this has not been done i suspect there is a reason for it.

Have to remember they made more than 1/2 of all cats existing and they have corresponding feedback database and skills that noone can match, like it or not.

So, give them time and relax. Sure would not employ engineer to do work as they have no clue about real life forces and interdependencies but just reading some books. That is not knowledge, except maybe can impress grandma.

Simi 60 · 22-05-2021, 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you have point but easiest to reinforce would be to simply put two bulkheads together. As this has not been done i suspect there is a reason for it.

Have to remember they made more than 1/2 of all cats existing and they have corresponding feedback database and skills that noone can match, like it or not.

So, give them time and relax. Sure would not employ engineer to do work as they have no clue about real life forces and interdependencies but just reading some books. That is not knowledge, except maybe can impress grandma.

Rubbish