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22-05-2021, 19:32
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Nevada, USA
Boat: boatless currently
Posts: 100
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by rspott
I believe Lagoon is trying this route now. It takes quite a bit for a company this size to (sorry for the phrase) turn the ship.
I do not know about proactive responses as of now. We are trying to help them understand that proactive is the best response. There are cultural issues at play as well.
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Your efforts are admirable. I am rooting for you guys. I think you are giving Lagoon a pass too easily. Their "improper use" BS is not going to cut it. In cases like this, the company has to really come clean and make it right by their customers beyond any doubt. They will take a hit financially no matter what strategy they choose. Let's hope they choose wisely and invest in restoring the consumer confidence in the brand.
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22-05-2021, 20:27
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60
I listed multiple designers above who have hundreds of vessels out there that get driven a lot harder than any lagoon would have who have not had major fail like lagoon is having with their bulkheads.
Simply looking at how the ones that work are constructed , coved and glassed in will tell you why one works and will always work and why the other has not.
I am a boatbuilder by trade
I have built and worked on many multihulls over the years
I have never seen such crap work as what I see in some of the bulkhead fail pics shown on these lagoon threads. I thought I had but lagoon has lowered that bar considerably
Bulkheads butted together, no sign of adhesive, no butt straps or scarfs and tabbed in with snot and no glass.
Has the hull even been sanded ?
Still can't believe what I am seeing.
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you are showing glue bond that is put on nonstructural places to avoid vibration noises etc. When structural part goes, this thing unglues, wow.
The last one is bulkhead in process of repair and we do not know the reasons.
Please be more specific.
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22-05-2021, 20:27
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,075
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozsailer
In all the posts and forums I have read I have not come across one proffessional engineer, shipwright or other expert who has actually said A)This is my experience B) I am a qualified person in this field C) I have done the engineering and here is the attached details of of what is required for the alleged issue.
There are many engineers in the world for different fields. If you are so confident of your comments please supply the reason why the bulkheads are failing, the fix with stress calcs and what feild of engineering you deal with.
There are so many opinions out there with "no fact" only hearsay, I heard and supposition that can only lead to concerns by Lagoon owners. It is clear that there are L450 out there with damage. How that damage occured is still not clear by any stretch of the imagination.
Ozsailer
Lagoon 440
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Those are some good points. My experience in critical calculations for man-rated space vehicles does not include much consideration for marine plywood. However, you don't have to look up the longitudinal compressive strength of 9 ply marine plywood (maybe 35 MPa) to understand that the geometry is problematic for a bulkhead lined up with a mast (thus under thousands of pounds of compression), using a relatively thin beam under compression with no lateral support on both sides. Designers get a feel for this stuff. You go fat there or you make an I beam. They did neither.
I can give you the math, but maybe we should wait for the FEA referenced in the Lagoon statement. That would be much more interesting.
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23-05-2021, 04:56
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hervey Bay Qld Australia
Boat: currently boatless
Posts: 695
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Cyan,
In regard to your statement -
"I can give you the math, but maybe we should wait for the FEA referenced in the Lagoon statement. That would be much more interesting." I totally agree with you. No offense was meant against you but I was tired and frustrated at seeing so many unqualified opinions out there which is of no assistance or help to finding a solution to the issue.
Ozsailer
Lagoon 440.
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23-05-2021, 05:44
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#65
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Boat: Elan 45 impression
Posts: 1,162
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozsailer
Cyan,
In regard to your statement -
"I can give you the math, but maybe we should wait for the FEA referenced in the Lagoon statement. That would be much more interesting." I totally agree with you. No offense was meant against you but I was tired and frustrated at seeing so many unqualified opinions out there which is of no assistance or help to finding a solution to the issue.
Ozsailer
Lagoon 440.
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Also, you don't understand .
some xx gay Bulkhead crack because Boat be under stress in some point of use. Bulkhead need repair, by that gay.
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23-05-2021, 06:14
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#66
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,585
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by more
Also, you don't understand .
some xx gay Bulkhead crack because Boat be under stress in some point of use. Bulkhead need repair, by that gay.
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All boats at sea are under stresses.. what your saying is never leave your pontoon..
__________________
It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
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23-05-2021, 06:27
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#67
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Croatia
Boat: Elan 45 impression
Posts: 1,162
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61
All boats at sea are under stresses.. what your saying is never leave your pontoon..
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Yes, but because a captain is responsible for the boat and crew. By my huge experience with warranty, I know for a boat doesn't have a warranty.
You must spill blood for receive repair from the warranty
Shut up repair and sail. Yacht need continuous repair and maintenance
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23-05-2021, 07:23
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: North Germany
Boat: 29 ft
Posts: 266
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Buckling can happen under axial pressure, standard cases for calculation are the so called "Euler" cases.
Cracking under 45° compared to load is also not unknown as shear stresses maximum is at 45 ° to axial stress direction.
Whether load assumptions were wrong or rigg tension in affected boats was too high or strength calculation for the loads was unsufficient - tbd.
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24-05-2021, 13:26
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 83
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Re: Broken bulkheads
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24-05-2021, 16:34
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hampton, VA
Boat: 45'=not anymore
Posts: 335
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Does anyone know if Robertson Caine’s Leopards have any structural, bulkhead issues? Or is it just the french
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24-05-2021, 18:59
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,653
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by more
Yes, but because a captain is responsible for the boat and crew. By my huge experience with warranty, I know for a boat doesn't have a warranty.
You must spill blood for receive repair from the warranty
Shut up repair and sail. Yacht need continuous repair and maintenance
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Not on the bits that actually hold them together they don't.
Not if done properly.
Show me all these other designs with bulkhead failures?
If what you claim is true they must be plentiful and easy to find
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24-05-2021, 19:02
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#72
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,653
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga
you are showing glue bond that is put on nonstructural places to avoid vibration noises etc. W.
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Multihulls are monocoque construction
EVERYTHING is structural
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24-05-2021, 19:10
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Boat: Fisher pilothouse sloop 32'
Posts: 3,416
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60
Multihulls are monocoque construction
EVERYTHING is structural
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A fact that seems to escape many.
__________________
Rob aka Uncle Bob Sydney Australia.
Life is 10% the cards you are dealt, 90% how you play em
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25-05-2021, 05:04
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#74
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,208
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Re: Broken bulkheads
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60
Multihulls are monocoque construction
EVERYTHING is structural
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That's even true of a lot of monos. On my boat, the cabin floors sit on support beams, but they're also tabbed into the hull at the sides and solidly attached to the bulkheads (which are tabbed in all the way around to both the hull and deck). So pretty much everything short of cabinets has some contribution to stiffness and holding the boat in the correct shape.
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25-05-2021, 05:17
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: On the boat
Boat: LAGOON 400
Posts: 2,347
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Re: Broken bulkheads
this bulkhead stuff got me to have really detailed look at mine and still in progress. Enjoying full days of yoga but as we plan to push boat more, need to get to know boat structure better.
My belief is that cause of bulkhead issues is water intrusion that makes its way into bulkheads via capillar action. This softens them and later on - rot. Bulkheads are not under dimensioned.
Why bulkheads in wood as fiberglass would be not that hard and problem free?
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