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01-07-2012, 11:45
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,904
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Will this make GPS obsolete?
Great article here on a new technology that takes existing radio waves from all sorts of sources to geolocate you, including inside a building.
What makes it interesting is that there is no new infrastructure that is needed, and it can't be turned off by satellite operators.
I wonder how well it will work in the middle of the Atlantic?
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
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01-07-2012, 11:54
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#2
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,974
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Avb,
This was done for years under the name LORAN. It doesn't work mid ocean because radio waves are line of site. Most modern GPS units do take advantage of the technology (under the name WAAS) which used land based transmitters to up the accuracy of the GPS signal.
The thing that is really getting some traction is units with multi-band GPS recievers that use the US GPS, Russian GLONASS, the Chinease, and European comparables. by combining all these systems into one über system, the accuracy should go up.
Thoug I think the likelihood of the US turning GPS off again is highly unlikely. It is too much a part of our infastructure now, and would likely cause us more problems than anyone we are fighting. Remember all our supply mechanisms (ships, airplanes, trains, and 18 wheelers) are dependent on GPS. Turning it off for them would cause havoc to us. It certainly is possible, but a very very unlikely situation.
__________________
Greg
- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
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01-07-2012, 12:48
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hayes, Virginia
Boat: 1962 28' Pearson Triton
Posts: 289
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble
It doesn't work mid ocean because radio waves are line of site.
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SOME radio waves are line of site (i.e. VHF).
__________________
Jay White
S/V Dove
1962 Pearson Triton, #318
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01-07-2012, 13:33
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,904
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble
Avb,
This was done for years under the name LORAN. It doesn't work mid ocean because radio waves are line of site. Most modern GPS units do take advantage of the technology (under the name WAAS) which used land based transmitters to up the accuracy of the GPS signal.
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LORAN requires dedicated transmitters, this technology builds on what is already out there. As previously indicated, no new infrastructure.
Only some radio waves are line of sight; think shortwave radio. Although I do still wonder if this would work in the middle of nowhere.
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
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01-07-2012, 13:43
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: 3rd wave passed the sea wall
Boat: private yacht always moving
Posts: 1,388
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
LORAN requires dedicated transmitters, this technology builds on what is already out there. As previously indicated, no new infrastructure.
Only some radio waves are line of sight; think shortwave radio. Although I do still wonder if this would work in the middle of nowhere.
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LORAN was discontinued several months ago. There was no money in the budget for it. some people fought to keep it as a backup to gps but the government was not interested in it
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01-07-2012, 13:57
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 639
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
When new technology hits the market, the receiver units are expensive. GPS units are both relatively inexpensive & ubiquitous these days. Therefore if there ever seemed to be a developing demand for the new technology, GPS companies would simply add on the technogy as a feature on first their high end units, then in time all their units.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
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01-07-2012, 14:06
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Boat: Journeyman
Posts: 705
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
The short answer is no, it's not going to work very well mid Atlantic. Only medium wavelength signals from shore transmitters are going to be useful, and longer wavelength means less precision in any calculations on position. And you can't use bounced long wave signals from the atmosphere because then you don't know how far they have traveled. Plus the number of sources are much fewer so errors will be larger.
/jesper
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01-07-2012, 14:32
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#8
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,217
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Does no one else wonder just how this "new technology" works? The article glibly says that it exists, but gives not even a hint of how it uses all these unidentified signals to work out a position.
Until such info is brought out I will remain skeptical.
Cheers,
Jim
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Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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01-07-2012, 15:26
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sacramento, CA
Boat: Bayliner Victoria 2750
Posts: 314
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Does anyone (including the original poster) find virtue in reading the article before asking questions and/or commenting on it? This is taken straight from the article:
It can also work in areas where GPS satellites are unable to perform. That means deep inside buildings and -- by picking up signals from Low-Earth-Orbit satellites -- in the most remote parts of the world, such as the Arctic. BAE Systems suggests Navsop could be used by drones and other autonomous aircraft, if their guidance systems are disrupted.
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Ed & Lindsey - Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
MMSI #: 338127697
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01-07-2012, 15:47
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#10
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Key West & Sarasota
Boat: Cal 28 "Happy Days"
Posts: 4,210
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
I'm waiting on the iPhone app that photographs the stars and applies some algorithm to geolocate you
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01-07-2012, 15:50
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#11
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
SOME radio waves are line of site (i.e. VHF).
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Radio waves that can not compute distance bounce and are NOT line of sight. Cell phones can do some line of sight computations however they don't transmit all that far.
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Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
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01-07-2012, 16:10
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Wash.
Boat: no longer on my Cabo Rico 38 Sanderling
Posts: 1,810
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
The US military doesn't use the same microwave radio signals (except for navigation) as does the rest of the users.
US GPS satellites transmit two different frequenctes.
http://www.kowoma.de/en/gps/signals.htm
A normal GPS fix is to 1000th of a mile. Is this not close enough?
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01-07-2012, 17:25
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,904
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astral Blue
Does anyone (including the original poster) find virtue in reading the article before asking questions and/or commenting on it? This is taken straight from the article:
It can also work in areas where GPS satellites are unable to perform. That means deep inside buildings and -- by picking up signals from Low-Earth-Orbit satellites -- in the most remote parts of the world, such as the Arctic. BAE Systems suggests Navsop could be used by drones and other autonomous aircraft, if their guidance systems are disrupted.
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As OP, yes I did read it but had forgot about the low orbit comments. I was more intrigued by geolocations inside buildings.
So does that mean they are using Iridium satellites?
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
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01-07-2012, 17:26
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Florida/Alberta
Boat: Lippincott 30
Posts: 9,904
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Quote:
Originally Posted by John A
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A normal GPS fix is to 1000th of a mile. Is this not close enough?
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Heck, that is damn near dead reckoning accuracy!!!
__________________
If your attitude resembles the south end of a bull heading north, it's time to turn around.
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01-07-2012, 17:27
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#15
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Armchair Bucketeer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,012
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Re: Will this make GPS obsolete?
Sounds like it will soon be time to upgrade my tinfoil hat.........
......I blame da Gubberment.
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