Lightening strike

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by BobbyHR

Sorry, I looked for a while without success, but I've seen it more than once and once a lecture attendee confirmed the size. The gauge is heavy lest the connection burn.

Huge voltages, when Ben put his 9' iron rod atop his roof in 1752 he wired it to a bell on the wall of his stairwell Another bell next to it was connected to the well pump in his basement. When there was voltage in the air a small brass ball suspended by a thread between the bells would travel back and forth ringing them, "Franklin's Bells". One famous portrait has them on the wall behind him. But I tell you this because one night he awoke to cracking and hissing, went to the stairwell and watched "fire as thick as my finger passing between the bells, enlightening the stair so well as you could see to pick up a pin", that from his autobiography.
If we knew how far apart the bells were we could guess pretty well the voltage, certainly hundreds of thousands of volts, passing to the air above, diffusing it while it attracted the stuff.
I've seen early photos of lightning rods that were like Ben's, very tall, and they work best. Also salt water is very conductive, fresh water not at all.
A very well grounded lightning rod will pump huge voltage into the air above keeping you safe. It is a crime that no test methodology exists to test a ground for same by giving the system a voltage blast and confirming an excellent ground exists.
Insurance companies are not your friends.

I ask because I have copies of Title 46 and Title 33 of the US CFR's, USCG NVICS, USCG Advisories for rigging inspections, all of the ABYC Standards, CE Standards, RCD's, ABS Standards, NFPA Standards and Transport Canada Standards all of which I am thoroughly familiar with and have never seen such mentioned let alone required. Nor was it mentioned in any of the lightning damage inspection or forensic marine damage inspection courses I've taken

[BobbyHR]

Yeah, it's pathetic. Look at how Chapman had to dance around it with his "cone of protection" written circa WW1.
Think about it, a man on the moon 50 years ago and we talk about lightning like we are aborigines somewhere. And still the specs are hard to find? Sheesh

Franklin got the basics but William Snow Harris spent a lifetime trying to convince the Admiralty to ground their masts. His first success was to clad the Beagle's spars with grounded copper, yes, THAT Beagle, about 90 years after Franklin's "The Power of Points" in 1752.
Those porous aluminum things for grounding electronics aren't good enough, they are way too small to deal with BIG single voltages that are trying to get away from themselves. Then you're in worse shape perhaps, when your ionizing above but you can't keep up and you invite a strike because you've been attracting the stuff.
Anyway, go big on grounding your masts, there's no downside, it's all good.
You get hit, you've lost.

[goboatingnow]

I’m wondering now why my insurers are not insisting on surveys etc. Could it be then that any subsequent issue would be deemed wear and tear and not covered whereas any survey issue now would be covered if deemed to be damage related.
Or worse on my renewal of insurance , they then insist on a survey leaving me to pick up the bill fixing anything , which potentially I could have claimed for now.

Hard to know what to do. My insurers have a good reputation but I’ll talk to them Monday re all this. I’m a ways from settling this claim

[JPA Cate]

goboatingnow,

At bottom, if you indemnify the insurers now, before 6 or nine months have elapsed, they will be unlikely to cover it. Imho, you need to allow for an unpleasant discovery, months later, because it seems to be the pattern that people experience.

Ann (opinion based on over 35 yrs. experienced and paying attention.)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

goboatingnow,

At bottom, if you indemnify the insurers now, before 6 or nine months have elapsed, they will be unlikely to cover it. Imho, you need to allow for an unpleasant discovery, months later, because it seems to be the pattern that people experience.

Ann (opinion based on over 35 yrs. experienced and paying attention.)

I’m not sure that’s possible. My insurers essentially need to see “ damage “ to allow a claim. In 6 months time it may be impossible to determine the cause of the damage, let’s say i had a rigging issue , is it wear and tear or related to the incident.

I will of course ask my insurers , my understanding is that my insurance continues to remain in effect post claim. The issue is can I attribute damage to the strike months later. This is not a new boat , stuff does fail

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m wondering now why my insurers are not insisting on surveys etc. Could it be then that any subsequent issue would be deemed wear and tear and not covered whereas any survey issue now would be covered if deemed to be damage related.
Or worse on my renewal of insurance , they then insist on a survey leaving me to pick up the bill fixing anything , which potentially I could have claimed for now.

Hard to know what to do. My insurers have a good reputation but I’ll talk to them Monday re all this. I’m a ways from settling this claim

I met a fella at a marine repair outfit who was having some glass work done to the thousands of pinholes in his 41' Hunter that resulted from two lightning strikes within 10 minutes. The underwriter had authorized $30k in repair and replacement. and called it resolved.

Out of sheer curiosity I asked him if I could have a look around. I found enough that he hired me for another two days ... I provided him with enough information to fight the underwriter and have the boat written off. The underwriters surveyor could have conflict of interest issues or perhaps lack of knowledge. Bite the bullet hire a really competent surveyor. If he can find things the company man couldn't, the underwriter will eventually pick up his tab.

The boat was sold as scrap to a yacht broker in Georgian Bay who de-registered it, changed the name, then licensed it (different than registration in Canada and not traceable by other than law enforcement) and sold it as a 2yr old boat in excellent condition. I never saw it after that. That gentleman gave me a glowing Google Review.

[fivecapes]

WG

Would you be able to share what you found that condemned the Hunter?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

WG

Would you be able to share what you found that condemned the Hunter?

I'm not going into many details other than keel, keel bolts, rigging, engine and running gear were involved.

I had been at war with underwriters before and knew better than to get directly involved. Court work pays extremely well and I have been called as an expert witness several times (once I even had no say in it, I was named by the judge)
. I simply do not have the temperment to sit in a hallway for days on end (even at $2k/day) waiting to be called to the stand. I provided hard evidence and photos to the owner with the understanding that he take it and run with it and my name not be mentioned.

[Frankly]

All lightning strikes are not the same. 10,000 to 200,000 amps covers a lot of ground. Also yachts vary widely in their ability to handle a strike. With a well grounded mast, I would not expect serious damage to the hull and rigging.

I still maintain on a sailing yacht with a well grounded aluminum mast in seawater the voltages experienced over the yacht range in the thousands not millions, but 20,000 amps is going to be 20,000 amps. 95 % may travel down the mast but there are several parallel paths for Thor to roam.

In my Ham radio days I used to disconnect my PL259/ coax feed from my various antennas whenever lightning was about. On several ocassion I witnessed an arc from the center pin to the outer shield during a nearby strike.

10 or so years back Lightning struck an Oak tree in my back yard. I had my IP and a Hunter (both with grounded masts) docked within 50 ft of that tree and both were plugged into the same duplex receptacle (both had Freedom 10 I/Cs floating onboard batteries). Got the radar on the Hunter and the Freedom 10 on the IP. One shore power cable ran NS and the other EW. Later on I was mucking around and noticed that the ring lug on the #10 wire that grounded the IP port back stay (stbd back stay HF antenna) had gotten so hot that the plastic crimp sleve had melted. I installed that lug myself. I can only assume the current pulse (inductive or possibly a side strike) was more than a few amps. No other damage and both well equipped with sailboat electronics.

One final lightning story. Many years back the same Hunter (moored at a local marina) lost complete set of instruments, autopilot, and Fredom I/C (the old black one). Plugged into the same power pedestal my neighbor(also a larger Hunter) had zero damage. The lightning strike hit a yacht on an adjacent dock (we did share a utility power transformer with the unfortunate fellow). The only identifyable difference, the next door Hunter's AC and DC systems were connected (as ABYC required), I had in my superior electrical understanding decided to operate with the two systems isolated. "Don't screw with mother nature and ABYC".


Frankly

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Frankly

All lightning strikes are not the same. 10,000 to 200,000 amps covers a lot of ground. Also yachts vary widely in their ability to handle a strike. With a well grounded mast, I would not expect serious damage to the hull and rigging.

I still maintain on a sailing yacht with a well grounded aluminum mast in seawater the voltages experienced over the yacht range in the thousands not millions, but 20,000 amps is going to be 20,000 amps. 95 % may travel down the mast but there are several parallel paths for Thor to roam.

In my Ham radio days I used to disconnect my PL259/ coax feed from my various antennas whenever lightning was about. On several ocassion I witnessed an arc from the center pin to the outer shield during a nearby strike.

10 or so years back Lightning struck an Oak tree in my back yard. I had my IP and a Hunter (both with grounded masts) docked within 50 ft of that tree and both were plugged into the same duplex receptacle (both had Freedom 10 I/Cs floating onboard batteries). Got the radar on the Hunter and the Freedom 10 on the IP. One shore power cable ran NS and the other EW. Later on I was mucking around and noticed that the ring lug on the #10 wire that grounded the IP port back stay (stbd back stay HF antenna) had gotten so hot that the plastic crimp sleve had melted. I installed that lug myself. I can only assume the current pulse (inductive or possibly a side strike) pulse was more than a few amps. No other damage and both well equipped with sailboat electronics.

One final lightning story. Many years back the same Hunter (moored at a local marina) lost complete set of instruments, autopilot, and Fredom I/C (the old black one). Plugged into the same power pedestal my neighbor(also a larger Hunter) had zero damage. The lightning strike hit a yacht on an adjacent dock (we did share a utility power transformer with the unfortunate fellow). The only identifyable difference, his AC and DC systems were connected (as ABYC required), I had in my superior electrical understanding decided to operate with the two systems isolated. "Don't screw with mother nature and ABYC".
Frankly

How many marine lightning investigations have done ?

[Frankly]

None involving watercraft, dozens involving land based equipment. I did also design and specify lightning protection systems for tall office buildings and condos.

Keep in mind that all lightning protection systems (both watercraft and land based) must be properly maintained to have any hope of controlling the path of that level of current.


Frankly

[Cyrus Safdari]

Originally Posted by BobbyHR

Then you're in worse shape perhaps, when your ionizing above but you can't keep up and you invite a strike
.

You cannot "attract" lightning strikes; this is a myth

https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-myths

[Frankly]

Attract "cause to come to a place or participate in a venture by offering something of interest, favorable conditions, or opportunities".

Locating in an area of high lightning incidence, and being the tallest thing in the crowd will up the probability of being Thor's chosen one.

The power companies put the static/ ground conductor on the top of the transmission towers because that is where the lightning is most likely to hit.


Frankly

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Clearly lightening strikes come in many shapes and sizes and currents that type of current would vaporised any wiring !!!

It would if that was it’s actual path

Lightening travels through ionized air if my memory serves me well and it’s initial path may or may not be it’s fully realized path

[Anders]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m not sure that’s possible. My insurers essentially need to see “ damage “ to allow a claim. In 6 months time it may be impossible to determine the cause of the damage, let’s say i had a rigging issue , is it wear and tear or related to the incident.

I will of course ask my insurers , my understanding is that my insurance continues to remain in effect post claim. The issue is can I attribute damage to the strike months later. This is not a new boat , stuff does fail

Are you with Pantaenius?