Another foundering how do chart plotters get it wrong

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

We need to face up to the fact that printed charts will eventually be unaffordable due to lack of sales volume. Carriage is no longer mandated by regulators so used charts are rarer than ever. Eventually no one will produce them. Will that happen in my cruising lifetime? Probably not but the undeniable trend is there. Cruisers would be well served by experienced navigators espousing how to survive in an electronic world.

"Eventually unaffordable"? Hell, based on my wallet's thickness, they already are... :-)

Still, some of us dinosaurs continue to purchase things we can't really afford. Pretty much the essence of boat ownership anyway, no?

:-))

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

AIS tells you where the other guy is but without a chart plotter telling you where you are that information is nearly useless. How in heavens name is someone supposed to plot 20-30 moving AIS targets on a paper chart? It's not feasible.

I've gotta disagree somewhat with that... My plotter(s) are pretty dated, and don't have the sufficient baud rate or whatever to support the display of AIS targets on my screen. So, my AIS setup is very rudimentary, confined to a stand alone Standard Horizon VHF displaying the basic information on a very tiny screen...

However, I'd hardly describe it as "nearly useless", in fact I've rarely felt the need for a more 'sophisticated' display... Sure, I've run plenty of boats where AIS targets are displayed on a plotter, and it's very nice to have, but hardly 'essential', in my view...

As for plotting 20-30 targets at a time, you obviously sail in more crowded waters than I... :-) Even around places like NY Harbor or Hampton Roads/Norfolk, in my experience it's very rare to have more than a few targets at a time that really bear close monitoring/plotting, most are often immediately dismissed as posing no collision risk at a glance... Of course, that will change as more and more recreational vessels obtain AIS transmit capability, and it will eventually get to a point where there will be so much 'clutter' as to render AIS somewhat useless, at times... At that point, people might have to take their eyes off the screen, and resort to once again looking outside their boats... :-)

The major downside of using an AIS system as basic as mine, the CPA info does not indicate whether you will cross ahead of, or behind, another target... Of course, that can usually be determined simply by making a 10 degree course change momentarily... Or, for the True Dinosaurs among us who might be in the mood to exercise some vestigial skills, one could always resort to fiddling around with one of these...

:-))

[boatman61]

Between 1997 and 2012 was the last time.. at sea away from land.. we disagree now and then.. but no way to ascertain who's right.. and.. I'm still floating so...
On Boy.... ON...!!

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I've gotta disagree somewhat with that... My plotter(s) are pretty dated, and don't have the sufficient baud rate or whatever to support the display of AIS targets on my screen. So, my AIS setup is very rudimentary, confined to a stand alone Standard Horizon VHF displaying the basic information on a very tiny screen...

That is a type of electronic plotter, Jon. I actually find the radar view like you have preferable to ships plotted on an electronic chart in open water (I prefer them plotted on a chart when they are behind breakwaters, around bends, etc). Also, your SH provides a text list of targets ranked and continually updated by CPA - which is also where the electronics do a much better job.

Now, as a solo sailor, you wouldn't really be pulling out a maneuvering board entering a busy shipping channel by sail in blustery conditions, would you?

I bet there is pretty much nobody who thinks that AIS is better NOT connected to electronic plotters and programs. Except for a few...

I think the issue of paper charts in the future will be less of one where they are too expensive, and more of one where they don't exist at all.

For example, I have related several times in this thread that the paper charts in our current cruising area are completely inaccurate and that electronic versions are more accurate - CMAP, CM93 and Navionics. I don't know why this is, but can speculate that the data used for the electronic charts are not in public domain and there is no money to be made by committing them to paper versions since there is absolutely no commercial traffic here.

The Bahamas are very close to being this way. If it wasn't for the Explorer charts (chartlets, actually), the other existing paper charts are for entertainment purposes only for much of the area. However, companies like Navionics are actively surveying the Bahamas with no plans to make paper charts.

Going forward, I see this increasing.

Mark

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

So, my AIS setup is very rudimentary, confined to a stand alone Standard Horizon VHF displaying the basic information on a very tiny screen...

However, I'd hardly describe it as "nearly useless", in fact I've rarely felt the need for a more 'sophisticated' display... Sure, I've run plenty of boats where AIS targets are displayed on a plotter, and it's very nice to have, but hardly 'essential', in my view...

Jon,

I fully agree with you. But the VHF display is relying on GPS data to show relative position to the other targets. It's about the same as a chart plotter without the chart. I was comparing a display to paper. Keeping up with several moving targets on paper is futile for most of us. Should we stay off the water because we can't do it? Or should we go out and have a nice day on the water while utilizing a display, software and satellites to help our eyes avoid collisions?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

"Eventually unaffordable"? Hell, based on my wallet's thickness, they already are... :-)

Or, for the True Dinosaurs among us who might be in the mood to exercise some vestigial skills, one could always resort to fiddling around with one of these...

When I have looked up vestigal.......... I think that I will agree with some of your points. However, if its a rude word, I wont.

Here is the deal. I can mess up with electronics or without. Ive done it. My GPS sometimes will NOT work in heavy heavy cloud cover. Ive even had it off track by up to a mile.

I am old school. If I have a paper chart for the area I plot my course and then use the chart plotter on screen. I then mark off my physical chart every hour or two and cross check.

Why? An old addage about builders. Measure twice and cut once.

It doesnt matter what you use as long as you know where pitfalls in the system can occur and how you can check them. My paper charts have pencil information on the, regarding impediments to passage that may or not be on the electronic chart plotters and vice versa, If I dont know which is correct, I assume to problem is there and proceed accordingly.

One final thing. In the 80s, my Yachtmaster instructor taught me about "RADAR ASSISTED COLLISIONS".
Ever wondered why big ships collide? They do far more frequently than you would think. He stated three reasons:

1/. Lack of reading the screen properly.
2/. Familiarity breeds contempt.
3/. Assumptions that everything is correct.

I apply that to paper charts and electronic chart plotters. (and GPS's.. I have 3 onboard to confirm. I try to get different satellites if I can.)

This is my experience in sailing. Yours may be different and I can accept that. Experience doesnt make me right, it just makes it how it turned out for me.

Learning a lot from you guys. Be nice if we could accept our different experience and leave it on the thread for what it is.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by colemj

That is an electronic plotter, Jon. I actually find the radar view like you have preferable to ships plotted on an electronic chart in open water (I prefer them plotted on a chart when they are behind breakwaters, around bends, etc). Also, your SH provides a list of targets ranked in CPA.

Good point, hadn't thought of it that way... Pretty basic 'plotter', for sure... :-)

Originally Posted by colemj

Now, as a solo sailor, you wouldn't really be pulling out a maneuvering board entering a busy shipping channel by sail in blustery conditions, would you?

Pretty unlikely, I'd say... Much simpler to stay outside, or on the extreme edge of, a busy shipping channel, instead... :-)

Originally Posted by colemj

I think the issue of paper charts in the future will be less of one where they are too expensive, and more of one where they don't exist at all.

For example, I have related several times in this thread that the paper charts in our current cruising area are completely inaccurate and that electronic versions are more accurate - CMAP, CM93 and Navionics. I don't know why this is, but can speculate that the data used for the electronic charts are not in public domain and there is no money to be made by committing them to paper versions since there is absolutely no commercial traffic here.

The Bahamas are very close to being this way. If it wasn't for the Explorer charts (chartlets, actually), the other existing paper charts are for entertainment purposes only for much of the area. However, companies like Navionics are actively surveying the Bahamas with no plans to make paper charts.

Going forward, I see this increasing.

Mark

I agree completely... As mentioned earlier, I can only imagine the use of Google Earth images being used more and more in the creation of charts in the future...

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I agree completely... As mentioned earlier, I can only imagine the use of Google Earth images being used more and more in the creation of charts in the future...

Well, then you have circled us right back around on this topic. When paper charts are no longer even available (as is actually happening now in some areas), how will people be drawing in pencil bearings and calculating drift and plotting positions, etc?

What will that secondary backup look like? In the near future, will chartplotters be magically more accurate, less likely to burrow into people's brains and make them do bad things? Will tablets and phones be acceptable backups then? Or primaries? What about the widely feared catastrophic loss of electricity?

In other words, in a world without paper charts, what form does the debate on this thread take?

Seems like those who are regularly castigated for not having paper charts and relying on chartplotters and electronic tools for primary navigation are just ahead of the curve.

Mark

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by colemj

Well, then you have circled us right back around on this topic. When paper charts are no longer even available (as is actually happening now in some areas), how will people be drawing in pencil bearings and calculating drift and plotting positions, etc?

What will that secondary backup look like? In the near future, will chartplotters be magically more accurate, less likely to burrow into people's brains and make them do bad things? Will tablets and phones be acceptable backups then? Or primaries? What about the widely feared catastrophic loss of electricity?

In other words, in a world without paper charts, what form does the debate on this thread take?

Seems like those who are regularly castigated for not having paper charts and relying on chartplotters and electronic tools for primary navigation are just ahead of the curve.

Mark

As long as there's copying techniques and paper..
there'll be paper charts

[colemj]

Originally Posted by boatman61

As long as there's copying techniques and paper..
there'll be paper charts

Seems like that opens up an entirely different can of worms. Intellectual property and all that, you know.

Not to mention, if people think others get into problems now simply using chartplotters - then developing software techniques to crack file encryption, properly orientate and display a chart and print it on a suitable large-format printer on quality paper seems like a stretch to me. And an expensive one at that.

You aren't actually suggesting that this is the future?

Mark

[minaret]

Originally Posted by weavis

When I have looked up vestigal.......... I think that I will agree with some of your points. However, if its a rude word, I wont.

Arms on a T Rex are vestigial. It means something you haven't used in so long it no longer works.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by minaret

Arms on a T Rex are vestigial. It means something you haven't used in so long it no longer works.

I can think of a closer analogy..........

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by colemj

Seems like that opens up an entirely different can of worms. Intellectual property and all that, you know.

Not to mention, if people think others get into problems now simply using chartplotters - then developing software techniques to crack file encryption, properly orientate and display a chart and print it on a suitable large-format printer on quality paper seems like a stretch to me. And an expensive one at that.

You aren't actually suggesting that this is the future?

Mark

I can print off sections expanded for detail at the moment of my CM93 charts... tricky entries I prefer to stay on top paper in hand rather than bobbing up and down eyeballing the CP..
Instead I use the compass and work to fixed positions ashore.. leading lights/towers/aerials etc to calculate and adjust my COG.
Many voyagers trade charts.. in places like La Coruna the photo copiers do a roaring trade.. carry copies and leave the heavy expensive ones at home.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by weavis

I can think of a closer analogy..........

I wasn't gonna go there...

[weavis]

Originally Posted by minaret

I wasn't gonna go there...

Ive been.
Sadder than you think

[FamilyVan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I can print off sections expanded for detail at the moment of my CM93 charts... tricky entries I prefer to stay on top paper in hand rather than bobbing up and down eyeballing the CP..
Instead I use the compass and work to fixed positions ashore.. leading lights/towers/aerials etc to calculate and adjust my COG.
Many voyagers trade charts.. in places like La Coruna the photo copiers do a roaring trade.. carry copies and leave the heavy expensive ones at home.

When I worked Search and Rescue in the Coast Guard we found paper charts to be a challenge on our Hurricanes. We would photocopy and laminate 8.5x11 sections so we could put it in a binder. We used dry erase markers on the laminate.

At the time we had early monochrome Chartplotters on the Hurricanes. But having something portable you could take with you was just so handy. For example, if you had to board a stricken yacht you could have the plotter on the Hurricane and take the binder with you on the yacht- or ashore (for a shoreline search).
They were also handy for investigating- you could take it say to a relative's home and say- can you point to your sons favourite fishing hole.

I'm not sure of the legal issues surrounding this practice as the CCG and the Canadian Hydrographic Service were more or less the same entity.

For a cruiser this might be useful for taking charts in your dinghy, ashore, or to take to another boat or bar or something to ask locals about certain chart features.

But again, I don't have enough knowledge of copy right laws to comment on the legality of this.

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