Question re: guns on board in Bahamas

[Lihuedooley77]

We do not carry any weapons on board, and have sailed australia, Tahiti, Tonga, Mexico, Calif and the channel islands, much of the Caribbean, bahamas, bvi, french west indies, and the windwards and grenadines. Plus greece and ireland.

In all those years, only one time, in Turtle Bay , Baha, Mexico, out of nearly 40 years of sailing , did we have an encounter.

My standing orders : Absolutely no guns or drugs on my vessel. If violated , you will be put ashore at the nearest chunk of land, or harbor that we are near. Period !

Probably 25 years ago, maybe more . Delivering a brand new Ericson from Cabo, Baha , Mexico to Los Angeles Harbor. Ca., USA. I was going to single hand the owners boat back to his dock in L.A. harbor, after a race from california to Cabo San Lucas, Baha, Mexico.

Three fellows from the Sailing Club heard what i was going to do, and wanted to help bring the boat back and help stand watches and enjoy the experience. No pay.

Erica also wanted to help . Turns out, she was the only one that I could count on. Turned out the three beards , one a bar owner, one an engineer and one a dock hand from our sailing club, were alcoholics, and I was not aware of that. Erica and myself were the only ones that I could depend on...but that is another story..

Back to guns on board :

About four days into the delivery, we pulled into Turtle Bay, on the west ( pacific) coast, of Baha, for water , and fuel, and a bit of a rest..

We square way the vessel top side, and the three be- whiskered crew take the dink ashore to find a bar.

I am down below catching up on the log, Erica has just made up our berth . I asked her to bring me a rum. NO RUM LEFT . OK, how about a scotch. NO SCOTCH, NO RUM, NO VODKA, ( Those three had drank nearly a case of hard liquor , plus a couple cases of beer, and wine ) and the owners whicker basket jug of cooking wine.

Now to the point of carrying guns. Bloody foolish, and that will come down to the Mexican Navy, who are armed with automatic weapons.

I heard a bump of a dink, hitting about our starboard stern quarter. Ah the fearsome threesome have returned !. the bar must be closed.

Nope, I look out the port light, and a sarape wearing, scruffy, bearded, un- kempt gringo, pirate, has his dink painter in hand, and is climbing up over the life line into our cockpit.

So, what are you gun toting dudes going to do , that will not result in you spending a few years in a Mexican prison ?

Well, in our emergency kit, the owner of the boat had one of those old metal ' very pistols ', ( One mean looking Flare gun to young lads ) . I quickly inserted a flare round, that looks like a shot gun shell.

Moving to the companion way, in a shooting stance, I pointed the flare gun at the pirates chest. Looked him dead in the eye.

"WHAT DO YOU WANT ? "

He is caught totally off guard, half way over our life line. His eyes as big as saucers, and his face showed immediate fear and distress . The barrel of the very pistol probably looked like a howitzer .

He stops his boarding, painter still in one hand, and babbles something like..
"Oh, I was just coming over to see if you needed to exchange any money for pesos."

NO, YOU SAW THE DINGY LEAVE WITH THE THREE CREWMEN AND YOU THOUGHT THE BOAT WAS UNATTENDED. YOU CAME TO STEAL EVERYTHING THAT WE HAD.

"ARE YOU ON A BOAT ? " His answer was yes, and pointed to a delapidated old Cal 25 .

WHERE ARE YOU FROM ? Answer, WASHINGTON STATE.

The hammer to the very pistol is cocked back, and pointed at his chest.

"GET OFF THIS BOAT, AND IF I SEE YOU AGAIN, I WILL KILL YOU ! "

He backs down , into his dingy and heads back to his boat. Problem solved . We were there for another day and a half , and never saw him again.

Now for the armed inspection of our papers and boat by the Mexican Navy.

They also showed up un announced , The wanted to know if we had any drugs or armemntos on board. NO. And wanted to see our paper work, which was in order.

Well, they tore the boat apart looking for drugs or guns. They were squared away in proper uniforms, miltary bearing, but friendly and polite along with their assault rifles, that I was not familiar with .

So, what do you think would have happened to all of us, including Erica, if we had any guns or drugs on board. So good luck to those who want to brandish a weapon, especially on any kind of military , or law enforcement personnel.

If they dont blow you out of your topsiders, you will be charged with ARMED INVASION.... You are locked up, and the boat is confiscated.

Yes, they found the flare gun, and did not make any comment on it. NO big deal.

The next day, we hauled up the anchor and continued on up the pacific coast and cleared into the U.S. in San Diego. Smooth and easy.

The OP and others, can live the " give em broad side, shoot first and ask questions later, dodge city life style " . Well most people I know, who do that, never served in the military, or volunteered for a foreign war.
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One other real life incident, and why I know about ARMED INVASION IN MEXICO.

Many moons past, I hung at a pub in the city of Orange, Orange county, Ca.
Cops, crooks, and adventurers, etc.

The gals that worked there, and some of the patrons were going down to Ensenada, Mexico, to party down for a couple of days. Anne the bartender wanted to join them, but she did not get off shift until midnight or so. She would drive down and join them at their hotel after she closed up.

We had a fellow, who hung out there , that was one of those IRS fugitives, and also bragged about being involved in the Bay of Pigs. The usual hot air babble. He found out she was driving to Mexico at 1 or 2 in the morning, and asked if she had a gun. Ans. NO.

Well , he brought her a small .32 saturday night special. None of us knew about that until much later.

Down she goes, by herself, crossed the border into Tijuana. Dark, dark night, 2 am in the morning, and there are some confusing one way streets .

All of sudden a car comes toward here, hits the bright light and blocks the road, two guys get out. Anne gets out and aims the .32 at these dudes.

Well, these two dudes pulled out their BIG GUNS... it was the mexican policia and she was going the wrong way on a one way street. Anne was arrested , tossed in jail, and charge with Armed Invasion. Pretty Yankee, Irish woman, in the T.J. Jail.

It took a week or two, but her family paid her bond or bribe, or whatever, and got her out of jail. She was supposed to go back for a trial or whatever, but that never happened, Nor did she ever return to Mexico.

As for those who carry guns on board, and especially point them at any type of law enforcement, military, or some poor fisherman, that is approaching your vessel..

Good luck with that one.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

...........
Firearms were outlawed amongst the general population in Australia and the government bought back the previously owned guns from the law abiding citizens. Now the only people with guns are criminals. Gun crimes and suicides are way down, of course, but non-gun crimes have skyrocketed. .........

What a load of horse dung!

I dunno where you got these crazy notions from but please, if you are going to post stuff, please try to post facts, not this fiction. Each sentence above is totally incorrect.

Maybe you are trolling....

[tp12]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

Have any of you ever looked at the statistics on people; men, women, even young girls, defending themselves with guns? It's in the tens of thousands of incidents every year in the US. And, the vast majority of these cases do not involve a gun even being fired. It's called deterrence. It's like the old question, "If everyone was carrying a gun what kind of civilization would that be? A very polite one I'd guess. That would be the case even if you only though everyone else was carrying a gun.

Suicides make up 80% of the gun deaths in the US. US cops kill 300 people a year by mistake.

Firearms were outlawed amongst the general population in Australia and the government bought back the previously owned guns from the law abiding citizens. Now the only people with guns are criminals. Gun crimes and suicides are way down, of course, but non-gun crimes have skyrocketed. Criminals don't need guns to victimize and unarmed population.

First a disclaimer: I served in the Australian Army for 7 years so I know my way around guns and I'm not anti-gun. I support hunting and fishing for food but no killing beyond that. I also support guns for sport - targets, not animals, and in some cases pest control.

What you've described is not an accurate representation of Australia's gun laws or the results, at all. Australians still own guns, just different guns and have more controls. My cousin, for example, is an absolute gun nut, and I've fired his blackpowder rifle down at the range.

What statistics are you using to arrive at these conclusions? I'm also very interested in seeing your statistics you've relied on for defending yourself with a gun, per your first sentence. Can you please post a link?

Here's a couple of fact checks for you, regarding Australia.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/australian-guns/

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gu...ralia-updated/

The claim that non-gun crime in Australia has 'skyrocketed' is false. As a general statement it remained roughly the same and has a slight downward trend. If you want to dig into more specific data you have to consider a lot of factors, not just the change in our gun laws, and the waters get muddied significantly.

Regarding the logic, if your switch gets flipped how many people can you kill in a crowd with even a semi-automatic weapon versus a knife? You can never eliminate harm or create a perfect process, only make better ones and improve public safety outcomes. That is what has happened in Australia.

Suicides, by the way, are increasing in Australia, not reducing as you claimed. Six men in Australia kill themselves every day, for example.

https://ontheline.org.au/blog/austra...cide-increase/

I hope I've sufficiently put those claims to bed.

Regarding having a gun on your sailing boat I can only agree that it will draw attention to you, make you a target, and escalate any violent situations and make it more likely that someone will get shot and or killed. If I intended on transiting the Gulf of Aden, for example, I might consider it. But I can't see any other situation where it would be a prudent thing to do.

[Cpt Pat]

P.S. to my post above: I'm not anti-gun. I've owned a gun since I was 7, and today I own, by chance, since long before his election, the same two guns Trump says he owns: an H&K USP .45 and a Winchester Defender 12 gauge. (I'm not sure what that says about me. I hope it means nothing.) They both stay locked in a safe. Still, I'd never carry either on a boat. My crossbow doesn't rust. And if I needed more weaponry at my home... I wouldn't be there. I'd be offshore beyond the range of small motor boats (and if they came off shore in typical conditions here, the sea would stop them first).

One other point about crossbows as a defensive weapon. If someone gets "shafted" in a non-vital place, the tissue damage is far less severe than a gunshot wound, but they are far more disabled with the shaft in place. That part of their body is seized by the shaft. So: it's more effective but less lethal.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Wotname

What a load of horse dung!

I dunno where you got these crazy notions from but please, if you are going to post stuff, please try to post facts, not this fiction. Each sentence above is totally incorrect.

Maybe you are trolling....

Originally Posted by tp12

First a disclaimer: I served in the Australian Army for 7 years so I know my way around guns and I'm not anti-gun. I support hunting and fishing for food but no killing beyond that. I also support guns for sport - targets, not animals, and in some cases pest control.

What you've described is not an accurate representation of Australia's gun laws or the results, at all. Australians still own guns, just different guns and have more controls. My cousin, for example, is an absolute gun nut, and I've fired his blackpowder rifle down at the range.

What statistics are you using to arrive at these conclusions? I'm also very interested in seeing your statistics you've relied on for defending yourself with a gun, per your first sentence. Can you please post a link?

Here's a couple of fact checks for you, regarding Australia.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/australian-guns/

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gu...ralia-updated/

The claim that non-gun crime in Australia has 'skyrocketed' is false. As a general statement it remained roughly the same and has a slight downward trend. If you want to dig into more specific data you have to consider a lot of factors, not just the change in our gun laws, and the waters get muddied significantly.

Regarding the logic, if your switch gets flipped how many people can you kill in a crowd with even a semi-automatic weapon versus a knife? You can never eliminate harm or create a perfect process, only make better ones and improve public safety outcomes. That is what has happened in Australia.

Suicides, by the way, are increasing in Australia, not reducing as you claimed. Six men in Australia kill themselves every day, for example.

https://ontheline.org.au/blog/austra...cide-increase/

I hope I've sufficiently put those claims to bed.

Regarding having a gun on your sailing boat I can only agree that it will draw attention to you, make you a target, and escalate any violent situations and make it more likely that someone will get shot and or killed. If I intended on transiting the Gulf of Aden, for example, I might consider it. But I can't see any other situation where it would be a prudent thing to do.

Guys, I wouldn't worry about it, facts don't feature much in his posts.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Guys, I wouldn't worry about it, facts don't feature much in his posts.

Oh, ok. He's certainly not alone on here in that respect. Some people seem to think that opinions and a few anecdotes = data

[fish53]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Maybe you misunderstood my point. There is plenty of killing in Guate, its just not random. No school shootings, no shopping mall masacres, etc.

The mass killings during the war servered a specific purpose. It was a terrorism campaign executed by the Kabil (Guatemalan Special Forces). And...to invoke even more terror...they mostly didnt use guns...they slaughtered entire villages manually...sometimes took them all day...horrifically brutal stuff. Their leaders were well trained by the School of The Americas.

Drug dealer deaths are an occuppational hazard...not a random killing.

"All those women...murdered in Guatemala City almost every night". Not familiar with that. Got a reference?

Here's a link, there's more current info but this discusses it in depth.
https://www.thecityedition.com/Pages.../Guatemala.pdf

[Hoosierdoc]

Have you shot your crossbow from your boat at a floating target? It’s hard.

How quickly can you get the second shot off? How many bolts do you keep ready to go? Do you think your crossbow is an adequate weapon to choose against a semi-auto firearm on another boat?

[boatman61]

How accurate is a semi from a small bouncing motor vessel..???

[Hoosierdoc]

Originally Posted by boatman61

How accurate is a semi from a small bouncing motor vessel..???

Not very. But it’s a phenomenal deterrent. Are you going to keep doing what you want when someone is shooting at you repeatedly? Or are you going to surrender immediately?

I can drop 33 rounds from my semi-auto in about 10 seconds. Pretty sure i’ll Be on target with a few of those.

How about a crossbow?

Guns aren’t just to hit people with bullets. They’re more often used to change someone’s behavior.

I’d add a bunch of smilie faces but i’m Trying to have an honest discussion not make mocking retorts.

[Lihuedooley77]

Aussies, that I have met, that includes both in when I was in the service, and on Erica and my two, one month long adventure trips to OZ.

Australia is a fantastic nation, and great people.

We were quite active, sailing, diving the great barrier reef and coral sea on a live aboard named the Spirit of Freedom ( 4 day and 3 day dive trips ). Also , lots of hiking, white water rafting, sailing the Whitsunday Islands ( two weeds on both trips ), snorkeling , kayaking, and partying.

We stayed three days in Sydney at the Rocks, on our first trip, and then based out of Cairns, and also the last trip added in nine days up in Cape Trip at an exotic fruit farm, only two cabins . We were not okole sitting, we were quite active, hiking, and snorkeling McKay reef.....and we did our share of exploring the pubs as well.

Never encountered a single unkind word at any time. And were not shot at.

We have great respect for the Aussies, and from what I have seen, they are a hardy , strong, independent, and fun and tuff bunch. They do not need guns.

As to gun ownership...

I can only speak for the U.S.A, and I also support the right to have guns, but with some kind of common sense control, registrations and gun safety and shooting programs for new gun purchases here in the U.S.A.

We cannot control what occurs in other countries. But we sure can select where we want to explore .

About, carrying guns into foreign nations, we understand that those nations have their own laws and procedures that we have to respect. And, we do.

As a civilian , I have owned guns since I was about 15 or 16, Target range and hunting and plinking.

I did not have any assault rifles, but did have rifles and one pistol . Usually only two or three at any one time. Now, that number is zero. Erica does not like guns, so that is that. 36 years, and no guns .

Amazing, I never had to shoot anyone breaking into my home. Nor, in a bar gunfight, or out on the streets . At 78, how could that have possibly happened ?

As to experiences in central or south america, or anywhere, we investigate and stay clear of any problem areas. This is not rocket science, it is good common sense.

For Central America, We chose Costa Rica. We had an eco adventure , on our own, no gang of tour bus visitors for us. . Costa Rica was great, as were the people the. Jungles, rivers, mountains, forests, and fabulous critters, etc.

Costa Rica was Fantastic, friendly, and nature oriented with a wide range of fun adventures that did not involve one second of sitting on a lounger at the swimming pool of a hotel, texting or tweeting.

Oh, and Costa Rica has Educated their people, no army, wow ! What a concept.

The comments that we make on this forum are from our personal experiences, and what we have witnessed and how we have lived our lives. That is what we can share.

[meridian28]

I was always taught “don’t draw unless you are going to shoot”

[Hoosierdoc]

“Willing” to shoot. Not “going”

Once you draw you have made it a gun fight. Can’t back it down again.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I'll take that trade but you have to take Quebec too

We tried to take Quebec but YOU guys used guns to stop us. Now you can keep it. Nah.

[Hoosierdoc]

Originally Posted by Lihuedooley77

Amazing, I never had to shoot anyone breaking into my home. Nor, in a bar gunfight, or out on the streets . At 78, how could that have possibly happened ?

Most people will not need a gun in their lives. But millions will. Congrats on being one who did not. You are fortunate. My family on the other hand... my wife's best friend was stabbed to death. My mother has been robbed at gunpoint. A friend has been robbed at gunpoint. I have seen countless patients who were violently raped or assaulted.

Just because YOU have been fortunate does not mean that all will be. You're right, we can only share our own experiences. I see people who had a heart attack in 1985 and just had angioplasty, no stent (they weren't around then) and the vessel is still open! So why do we waste money on stents now? Because the rest of the people died and I'm only seeing a small sample of those who got only angioplasty instead of angio+stent.

Your sampling bias really isn't relevant in the overall scheme of personal protection. But you are correct, choosing where you go plays a big role in keeping you and your family safe. To the guy whose wife was raped and later killed herself, should they not have been walking on a beach in the Bahamas?

Why do people need stopcocks? I'VE never had a through-hull fail or needed to work one!

Oh, and Costa Rica has Educated their people, no army, wow ! What a concept.

So... armies usually stop foreign invaders. How does educating costa ricans regate the need for protection against foreign invading forces? Most countries use a police force to enforce national and regional laws. Does Costa Rica have a police force?

Many countries don't have "armies" thanks to the overwhelming blanket of protection they receive due to their proximity of the US and our large army.

Not sure what your point was there.