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tomfl · 07-07-2020, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

And the Cubans are probably not keenly interested in keeping the boat. Citizens are not permitted such conveyances and no government purpose for it.

As I posted earlier this is very true. Boat is not what I would call a dream boat and who knows what damage it suffered due to what ever reason.

Like I said as a rule when a boat enters Cuban waters like this one did and anchors the first response is to tell the captain to leave as quickly as possible.

This is why I think there must be something else going on here. I have no idea if this is what happened but even a small amount of pot and Cuba can be very harsh in it's response. Same for several other things that would be no big deal elsewhere.

Snore · 07-07-2020, 10:09

The finances of this are such that you should walk away. If this indeed a $2k boat- the jib sheets may have bent the shaft, if there was significant water coming in -that is more problems, and then we have the gooseneck to fix.

Call it a $2k education- but do proceed with the USCG mutiny complaint.

MattWll · 07-07-2020, 10:37

Wow, this is so interesting.

Thumbs Up · 07-07-2020, 11:18

OP stated that he is into the boat $15,000. Mutiny, legally defined , would not apply in this case. If you are helping a friend as crew on his boat to make a passage, are you legally required to follow his orders? What if you have experience and he has none? What if he is insisting to do something his way (something that appears to you as suicide). Who should take charge? We don't know the story and probably never will. I think that the OP could arrange to keep the boat at one of the marinas until he can return provided he wasn't accused of committing any crimes. Seriously, a mutiny complaint? Explain to us how that works please.

sanibel sailor · 07-07-2020, 12:03

I believe mutiny applies to government/military vessels where there is a precisely defined and legally based command structure. This is probably chargeable as kidnapping if he was held against his will and taken to an unlawful location.
Coast Guard might see a crew insurrection aboard a recreational vessel as nothing more than an HR issue.

RaymondR · 07-07-2020, 17:43

A good prosecutor could have a field day with this one, deprivation of liberty, willful damage, theft, illegal entry etc.

sanibel sailor · 07-07-2020, 19:46

so could a defense lawyer

CarinaPDX · 07-07-2020, 20:37

I think there is a bit of naivete here, and more generally in the cruising community, about the application of law to recreational vessels. There is no exemption for recreational vessels - we are covered by the same laws. If someone wants to leave your boat in a foreign port you are on the hook for repatriation if they go to the port captain. If a crew breaks up a bar you are on the hook for damages and fines. If they are in need of medical care you are paying for it. If you lose someone overboard you are going to be explaining that to the coast guard, and the questions will be the same. The one difference is that if the skipper has a masters license he will be held to the standard of simple negligence, whereas an amateur skipper will only have to clear the gross negligence standard - a great reason to not get a masters license unless you are a professional. And mutiny is mutiny - the captain is responsible for the safety of all aboard and they are responsible for obeying the captain's lawful orders - assaulting the captain or taking control is a crime. Of course the CG will deal with it differently depending on the severity of the situation but that doesn't alter the law. We are not exempt.

I am not a lawyer, and especially not an admiralty lawyer, but I have been around long enough to see the long arm of the law come down on some who think that the law doesn't apply to them.

If there is an admiralty lawyer in the house I would love to hear from them.

Greg

sanibel sailor · 07-07-2020, 21:19

wikipedia (not exactly a legal tome) says mutiny is a criminal conspiracy against a legal authority. Uprising of one is not a conspiracy. I would imagine on a recreational vessel, establishing legal authority might be highly nuanced in some situations. Delivery skipper with owner aboard for instance.

My guess is a (relatively) low value boat, recreational rather than commercial, no physical harm done, jurisdictional questions, competing stories both likely with major questions unanswered... unlikely to get help from the authorities. Reasonable doubt aplenty. Civil action has lower burden of proof, but likelihood of collecting on a judgement may be low and I doubt an attorney would do it on contingency. You might file, hope for no defendant response and get a summary judgement but if contested, costs would quickly exceed value of the boat.

tomfl · 07-07-2020, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I think there is a bit of naivete here, and more generally in the cruising community, about the application of law to recreational vessels. There is no exemption for recreational vessels - we are covered by the same laws. If someone wants to leave your boat in a foreign port you are on the hook for repatriation if they go to the port captain. If a crew breaks up a bar you are on the hook for damages and fines. If they are in need of medical care you are paying for it. If you lose someone overboard you are going to be explaining that to the coast guard, and the questions will be the same. The one difference is that if the skipper has a masters license he will be held to the standard of simple negligence, whereas an amateur skipper will only have to clear the gross negligence standard - a great reason to not get a masters license unless you are a professional. And mutiny is mutiny - the captain is responsible for the safety of all aboard and they are responsible for obeying the captain's lawful orders - assaulting the captain or taking control is a crime. Of course the CG will deal with it differently depending on the severity of the situation but that doesn't alter the law. We are not exempt.

I am not a lawyer, and especially not an admiralty lawyer, but I have been around long enough to see the long arm of the law come down on some who think that the law doesn't apply to them.

If there is an admiralty lawyer in the house I would love to hear from them.

Greg

Lots of good stuff in this post. It is true the captain is responsible for the crew's actions, health, and safety; this is the reason the crew must obey the captain's orders. There are plenty of stories about a captain having to pay literally thousands of dollars to fly a crew member back to the port or origin.

The law makes no distinction between a pleasure boat and a commercial boat; but there may be additional union/government issues on some commercial boats. A captain with credentials is held to a higher standard than a pleasure boat captain.

One thing about the US and US flagged boats is no departure papers are required where a lot of countries do require them. In great part this is due to what I will call customs and immigration issues and countries don't want what they view as riffraff coming into the country so they make sure everyone who arrived on a boat leaves with the boat.

Before COVID-19 Cuba was quite welcoming to just about anyone since they were viewed as a potential source of income for the island. The Cuban patrol boats were mostly concerned with stopping Cuban citizens from leaving. They were also fairly understanding about boats entering their waters if there were weather or mechanical issues; they just wanted the boats to leave quickly, in some cases faster than the boat's captain wanted to leave.

That is what is so strange about this story to me. I know of a couple of cases where a storm had damaged a boat's sails and it more or less drifted into Cuban waters. The boat was simply told to leave as soon as the wind abated; no harm, no foul. In this case the boat may have been viewed as damaged to the extent it was not seaworthy. But it is basically a day sail from Cuba to the Keys and plenty of Cubans have made the trip in little more than inner tubes lashed together with rope and 2X4s, you can drift that far in a couple of days easily; not to mention the USCG is always there to intercede.

There has to be something else going on hear to account for such a departure from how the Cubans normally deal with things like this.

Discovery 15797 · 07-07-2020, 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandoka

People, I'm putting my two cents in. As co owner of Dancing Lions. Everything Bill is saying is true and documented by video and pictures. I have the material in my possession. The vessel has not made it to it's final destination , Costa Rica, so it's still flagged in the US. Right now we're just trying to get my partner back to the US. We'll still have to figure out how to get it out of Cuba, and hopefully to port in Costa Rica. Any ideas or assistance in that regard will be appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billpeerson

Greg,
The vessel is registered in Va., Yet to be flagged in C.R. The Coast Guard will be involved. Thanks for the ( mutiny) aspect.
Bill

According to Bill, the vessel in question is not a US documented vessel. It is registered in the state of Virginia. (Same as a car is registered.)

The purpose of documenting a vessel prior to leaving US territory is to provide protections, such as the unlawful seizure of a documented (US flagged) vessel.

Your claims as stated may likely be nothing more than a civil matter, not a federal case. A case for mutiny could likely never be proved, unless there is video showing he forcibly locked you in the room and stated on the camera that he was taking command of the vessel against your wishes. But, if this incident occurred outside US waters (> 12 nm)....jurisdiction may be problematic. It really seems it might come down to a he said / he said pissing contest.

Greg suggests there are photos and videos. Who took the photos and videos if you were locked in the v-berth? What exactly do the photos and videos show? Did you keep a journal of events day by day to substantiate your claims?

WRT the boat...it is private property that was confiscated after illegally anchoring in Cuba. Since it is not documented the USCG may have no interest in the matter as it is technically not a US flagged vessel...it is property owned by a citizen of the US that was illegally taken into Cuba. If you really want to retrieve the boat you may likely need to hire a Cuban lawyer to petition the Cuban authorities to request permission to retrieve your private property. If the boat is not sail-able...you may also have to hire a tow vessel from Florida to make the journey down and back if they release the boat.

I suspect that even if you were to able to even find a lawyer that would pursue this case you would be better off using that money to buy another boat. You will pay way more for a good maritime lawyer than the value of said vessel, even with 15K in upgrades, and you may not be successful in your case.

But, please let us know the outcome.

CarinaPDX · 08-07-2020, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Greg suggests there are photos and videos.

No, I didn't.

Greg

**StuM** · 08-07-2020, 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

No, I didn't.

Greg

Nope, that was Gandoka - in his only post ever
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3178879

Maybe the G stands for Greg.

mvweebles · 08-07-2020, 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

.... The one difference is that if the skipper has a masters license he will be held to the standard of simple negligence, whereas an amateur skipper will only have to clear the gross negligence standard - a great reason to not get a masters license unless you are a professional. .....

When I was delivering, I made many international stops in Mexico and Central America. I am not schooled in the law, but the officials in each country were quite keen to count noses of crew coming in and going out. It was quite clear to me that as captain, I was 100% responsible for the health, safety, and actions of my crew. It may be a bit more friendly with a cruising boat versus a delivery with paid crew, but I wouldn't bet on it. As the OP found out, LEO in a foreign port can turn a good day bad, and a bad day worse. And it goes downhill from there.

Peter