California communities suing for polluters to pay for storm damage

[DeepFrz]

Well of course they did Don. There is documentation that proves they knew and scientists around the world knew it even before the oil companies and way before 1972. I mean who do you think told the oil company execs. what was going on.

The total destruction that they have caused around the world, not even taking into account the climate warming, is horrendous. And it has been done with callous disregard for peoples health and welfare and for the welfare of the environment. It has also been done with the assistance of corrupt political officials around the world as well.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Don C L

WAY back in 1975, in my dorm at UCSB, a group of bio majors and a group of physics majors took up the debate of nuclear power. One of the physics majors, a nice young man, on the water polo team, from Orange county, quite conservative, got up angrily and admonished all the tree-hugging bio majors for not endorsing nuclear power. "WHAT? You want us all to get cooked in global warming?" he yelled. I remember it clearly. Now, if a bunch of privileged 20 year-old kids in 1975 knew that fossil fuels were leading us to global warming, don't you think a few oil and coal company executives had heard about it too? Now, who paid for all the ads trying to convince us global warming was a hoax? Well, we all have, with every gallon we buy. I really don't want to fuel any fires here, the die is cast now. But I just like to keep the historical perspective too sometimes. I have no idea if the suit has merit, but I bet dollars to donuts they knew long before that kid defended nuclear power in a dorm that there were problems on the horizon.

They stop selling petroleum based products in those jurisdiction's see how fast they drop the suit.
Kinda reminds me of when they were protesting the oil drilling rigs that were in Seattle for repairs paddling all around trying to get in the way in their plastic kayak's

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by newhaul

They stop selling petroleum based products in those jurisdiction's see how fast they drop the suit.
Kinda reminds me of when they were protesting the oil drilling rigs that were in Seattle for repairs paddling all around trying to get in the way in their plastic kayak's

Very courageous, IMHO.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Kinda reminds me of when they were protesting the oil drilling rigs that were in Seattle for repairs paddling all around trying to get in the way in their plastic kayak's

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Very courageous, IMHO.

That's one way to look at it. But another comes to mind in describing people who use plastic kayaks made from fossil fuels to protest the production of . . . yes . . . fossil fuels. Plan on staying warm this winter up in Winnipeg are you?

So lemme get this straight. The plaintiffs in this lawsuit will not only need to prove a link btwn. fossil fuel emissions, rising seas & coastal flooding, but also that oil cos. knew about this link way back when but suppressed it. Of course this necessarily means that somehow only scientists working for the oil cos. knew all of this back in the 1970's but nobody else did. Huh. And if they got that far they'd still have to prove that, even if they had not suppressed this "evidence" and had notified the outside world, that somehow the ensuing decades of fossil fuel consumption would not have occurred. Yup, certainly sounds like a good case to me . . . .

Simple answers to complex problems are often seductive but rarely realistic or effective. As has already been pointed out, this has nothing to do with the law or science & everything to do with propaganda & politics. In the end only the lawyers will prosper.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Exile

... nothing to do with the law or science & everything to do with propaganda & politics. In the end only the lawyers will prosper.

Propaganda? Maybe you just mean grabbing media attention.

Maybe the only way to find out and expose exactly what lies have been promulgated is to see 'em in court.

[a64pilot]

I'd say off hand that step one may be for those that are against fossil fuels to give up their SUV's and 3000 sq ft houses.
I haven't seen that yet, matter of fact Al Gore just recently bought a huge house boat

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Well of course they did Don. There is documentation that proves they knew and scientists around the world knew it even before the oil companies and way before 1972. I mean who do you think told the oil company execs. what was going on.

The total destruction that they have caused around the world, not even taking into account the climate warming, is horrendous. And it has been done with callous disregard for peoples health and welfare and for the welfare of the environment. It has also been done with the assistance of corrupt political officials around the world as well.

blah, blah, blah...

[bgallinger]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Well of course they did Don. There is documentation that proves they knew and scientists around the world knew it even before the oil companies and way before 1972. I mean who do you think told the oil company execs. what was going on.

The total destruction that they have caused around the world, not even taking into account the climate warming, is horrendous. And it has been done with callous disregard for peoples health and welfare and for the welfare of the environment. It has also been done with the assistance of corrupt political officials around the world as well.

So would you include Steven E. Koonin as one of those "corrupt political officials"? He was after all 2nd Undersecretary of Energy for Science. Read his credentials and what he has to say about climate change in the Wall Street Journal.

[newhaul]

Global warming all the glaciers melting all the Arctic sea ice was not even close to as low as they were suggesting it actually appears to be in rebound ( time will tell) and the Greenland ice sheet is not going to help the people sueing big oil any either
Greenland Ice Sheet Today | Surface Melt Data presented by NSIDC
reduced melting and heavy early springtime snowfall may result in a net increase in Greenland’s ice mass this year for the first time this century .

[danielamartindm]

First they'll have to prove that sea levels are, in fact, rising. Calling it "settled science" doesn't make it so to a court of law, or even a sentient person. Wocka wocka wocka.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

blah, blah, blah...

I suppose I can understand if folks see concerns of the environment are just misinformed expressions from chicken littles. But have some facts to back it up. Blah Blah is nothing more than insulting, tantamount to name-calling and drawing swords.

My father, a pretty conservative guy, grew up in Los Angeles. He described a paradise on Earth when he was a child that succumbed to the plundering and exploitation of those who came to make a dollar. When he was a kid LA had an excellent public transit system. Collaboration between oil, tire and auto industry bought up the easements and dismantled the tracks. Poor land use laws and water wars too have taken their toll encouraging urban sprawl with no plan for a decent infrastructure to support it. My father, as a result, became an ardent environmentalist.

To argue that certain companies did not knowingly conspire to further their own financial interests and those of their investors and shareholders at the expense of the communities at large is very naive IMO.

Most people can see we are all facing some big global challenges and how well we discuss it will determine how things turn out for all of us. There has to be a better way than "Blah Blah."

Or am I the naive one?

[SV THIRD DAY]

I could say something.....but then again....you already know what I'm going to tell you...

[LakeSuperior]

Don - methinks naïve. Simply put corporations are like organisms in an given environment, they live, evolve, and optimize their survival in their environment.

What is the corporation environment...it is competition and maximization of shareholder profit within the rules of the game. Lawmakers make the rules of the game, pollution standards for example.

If you are competing on cost why would you spent money that you are not required to by regulation? You just handed your competition a cost advantage. Now think about competing in a world market.

Corporations that have a conscience can afford to. They are handily beating their competition.

If corporations are destroying the world then it is because we have allowed it. We enable them by defining their environment. We did not regulate. We only need to look in the mirror.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Don - methinks naïve. Simply put corporations are like organisms in an given environment, they live, evolve, and optimize their survival in their environment.

What is the corporation environment...it is competition and maximization of shareholder profit within the rules of the game. Lawmakers make the rules of the game, pollution standards for example.

If you are competing on cost why would you spent money that you are not required to by regulation? You just handed your competition a cost advantage. Now think about competing in a world market.

Corporations that have a conscience can afford to. They are handily beating their competition.

If corporations are destroying the world then it is because we have allowed it. We enable them by defining their environment. We did not regulate. We only need to look in the mirror.

Bingo....
People LOVE to throw around the "Evil Corporation" jargon as if Corporations are some space alien, when in fact Corporations make up the vast majority of employee pensions (Public and Private) so your retirement is linked to the same evil corporations....kinda ironic isn't it.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

If corporations are destroying the world then it is because we have allowed it. We enable them by defining their environment. We did not regulate. We only need to look in the mirror.

To some extent this is true. But you have to look at the propaganda that the fossil fuel companies have spread, lead by the Koch brothers, it seems to me, and you can understand why there is such disparity among people on the AGW issue.

There is huge disparity between people in other parts of the world and Americans because North Americans have been subjected to huge amounts of propaganda by the oil companies and politicians who have been bought and paid for. One only has to look at the huge disparity in the use of "Green" energy in Europe compared to NA and the revolution has just begun. Even China is making progress towards a green environment. Meanwhile those of us in NA sit idly by and argue that "the science is not proven" when in fact the science of AGW is completely proven.

I am not against the extraction and use of fossil fuels, I do drive a gasoline powered car now, although I went for about 15 years without a vehicle. But, had we extracted and used fossil fuels in an environmentally sound way perhaps we would not be in such a precarious position in the world. That of course requires an informed and enlightened population.

It is the propaganda spread by the fossil fuel industry that is really on trial in California I believe. It is interesting that California has taken a leadership role in fighting climate change for quite a large number of years now because of the changes that Don has mentioned. And we as sailors, or want to be sailors, are affected hugely by the ferocity of the weather conditions that we are now witnessing.

I have a feeling that these are wasted words but I had to get them off my chest.

Peace brothers...