Purchase question

[Cheechako]

My take is a circumnavigated boat has had lots of use , wear and tear. It depends on what's been replaced etc I suppose to some extent. Also, equipment used on that trip is likely well used and I wouldn't put a lot of value on it. But you are talking two different boats too. If neither quite fits the bill.... keep looking.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Yep. I was talking non-US prices.

We had 6 new SS chainplates done in Auckland at USD 60 each. That was 2005 but I do not think id adds up to more than USD 400 for six today.

On our 10m mast the whole new wire set with works (swages) costs USD 800 (prices 2012). Wire is 6 and 5 mm, two tops, a forestay, two backs and four lowers. I have also replaced 3 turnbuckes in the process (another USD 150).

So my calculation was USD 1500 in a 10m mast. Hence my less that 5k in a 32-35 boat. IPs have notoriously short sticks.

I was not aware materials and workforce are that much more pricey in the US.

barnakiel

The metal prices aren't that's high, it's the design.

IP chainplates are generally made of three verticle plates that are welded to stainless angle iron just below where they penetrate the deck. So the angle iron presses against the deck mold. Then further down they are welded to a long piece of stainless that ties all of the verticle pieces together. All total they are about six feet long, 8 inches high, and weigh about 12 pounds. Each chainplate has 24 welds, each of which are about 2", so 48 inches of welds that need to be cleaned, inspected, then polished.

Finally this entire structure has to be polished, then electropolished, and finally installed.

In order to install them you have to remove the entire side of the boat because they are so large that they'd can't be maneuvered into place easily. Then after they are finally installed the entire structure is bolted, then encapsulated with glass. On a simple piece of strapping like most boats use replacement isn't a huge issue normally. You just need enough roof to turn a wrench. But on IP's it's a massive job.

Worse, IP 316L chainplates have been known to fail in as little as five years, though 15 is more normal. This is because the design relies on caulk to prevent sea water from penetrating into the encapsulated chainplates. If the caulk ever does fail then you have stagnant salt water collecting inside the hull chainplate pocket which leads to rampant poltice and intergranular corrosion.

Btw... I really hate the IP chainplate design. It isn't my kind of boat to begin with, but I could recommend them to someone's because of the chainplates alone.

If titanium chainplates make sense on any boat in the world, it I should IP's. Just for corrosion prevention.

[Mommasails]

Lovely - I thought the 316 solved much of the problem. Does anyone know if the 2000 IP 320 is designed any better?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Stumble

On most boats I wouldn't agree, the IP chainplates however a a monolithic welded lattice that is then encapsulated in the hull. To remove them involves pulling all the furniture off the bulkheads, and then cutting multiple layers of fiberglass away just to inspect them fully.



Replacing them at this point due to the cost of access only makes sense. If I remember correctly (and it has been years) a set of welded up then electropolished chainplates in 316L runs about $2,000 or around $3,000 in G5 titanium.



A full replacement job runs $8,000-$10,000 is stainless versus $8-11,000 in titanium. Which is why so many IP's are moving to titanium. Because unlikely stainless they will never need to be done again.

This pretty much sums it up. I believe Mack Sails does the majority of IP chainplates now, they are the ones the factory will send you to.
However Mack Sails has never done or seen Ti chain plates, mine will be the first set they have done. They are one piece when the boat is constructed, but Mack Sails replaces them in three pieces, to do it in one piece would mean removing the bulkhead, and that is not easy.
Mack Sails has a video on IP chain plate replacement
https://youtu.be/iB3qzgxvYY8
I hope though that there will be more done with Ti, cause going back with a metal that has been proven time and again to fail is foolish when there is another means available.
As has been said, the tanks are the other Achilles heel. There are no other issues with an IP that I am aware of. All boats have issues, if you think not, then you are misinformed.
The chain plates are a $10K to $11K job to have done, and if in Ti should never have to be done again.
According to more than one Broker I have spoken to, this is money that will increase the sales price of the boat, chain plates are such a well known problem that people now know to ask. Most money you spend, is gone of course.

I have not met someone with a failed water tank yet, but I know they are out there, have to be. Aluminum is not forever, however there are many high end aluminum boats, so maybe it's not all that bad, maybe if your careful with the bleach it will be OK?


To give credit where it's due Stumble got me looking into Ti as an alternative, otherwise I was headed down the 316 road with the rest of the herd.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Mommasails

Lovely - I thought the 316 solved much of the problem. Does anyone know if the 2000 IP 320 is designed any better?

Design is the same, it is a bad design for maintenance, however it is a very strong design.
It is not all that an uncommon design, if done in Ti from the beginning, I doubt we would question the design

[Mommasails]

Ok, then that is the price of the IP. Thank you for the thoughtful posts.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Mommasails

Lovely - I thought the 316 solved much of the problem. Does anyone know if the 2000 IP 320 is designed any better?

IP first went to 316, then to 316L. Before they closed down I think they were looking at a super autensic stainless (this is about the time I tried to sell them titanium as a factory option).

Fundamentally the problem is that intergranular corrosion in stainless is not just insidious it can happen very fast. In a worst case scenario we are talking about destroying a 2"x.25" plate of 316L in weeks not years (though this speed is in a lab, not real world).

Higher and higher grades of metal will last longer, but a very high salt concentration (read evaporated salt water), that becomes oxygen depleated (read pocket with a small but water accessible hole), in an otherwise airtight (read encapsulated) area is litterly the text book definition of worst case scenario.

Intergranular corrosion is governed by what's called the 'critical crevice corrosion temperature (CCCT)' which changes based on the grade of stainless (316 is higher than 304, but lower than 316L...). But it also changes based on salinity, the higher the salt concentration the lower the temp. Off the top of my head the CCCT for 304 is around 25F with saltwater, and for 316 it's around 30F. I can't remember exactly, but it's in the below freezing range.

But the encapsulated pockets the chainplates are in... first the water evaporates a bit, raising the salinity... then a bit more salt water splashes in, then evaporates raising the salinity some more. This cycle pretty much starts the day the chainplate caulk fails, and continues until they fail. Since there is no way to flush the salt out of the pocket the only option is to remove them.

The reason I so strongly advocated titanium both while I was selling it and now that I am not. Is in part because the CCCT for G5 titanium is something like 600F for a saturated salt/water solution. Basically titanium doesn't corrode in the marine environment, the temperatures and salinity simply aren't high enough.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Any competent boat yard should be able to handle it. But IPY has a great service yard in St. Petersburg. If you call them and give them the model they can probably quote a chainplate replacement on the phone. It's a very common refit on all the IP models.

I thought IP went out of business?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by deluxe68

I thought IP went out of business?

They did and were bought, no idea if they will ever recover or not, Seaward I think bought them, they were producing Seward boats at the time and I guess still are?
Been a year and a half since I was at the factory, then the writing was obviously on the wall, they did not have enough work to keep operating then, surprised it took so long myself