Is teaching boat skills on my boat illegal without a 6-pack?

[DreaminFred]

Hi all-

As I consider ways to make my boat habit less expensive- It occurs to me that there are a lot of skills any of us might have that others want to acquire. Some of these are dockside- e.g. marine electrical, diesel maintenance, fiberglass, etc. Others are best acquired afloat- navigation, sail-handling, salt-water fishing, etc. Where is the line between captaining a boat for hire (requires 6-pack license or more) and instruction which can be contracted with willing participants?

Fred

[mogulskibum]

You need to ask two different entities that question:

1. Your local coast guard station. They will be the ones to take any legal enforcement actions against you. You will get a better and more helpful response from them if you ask very specific questions (I.e can I teach someone about marine electrical work, with "hands-on" training on my boat while it is tied up at the dock? What if we leave the dock?)

2. Your insurance company. They will be the ones that cover (or don't cover) you if someone slips and breaks their wrist, or if grandpa grabs the wrong wire and shorts out his pacemaker and dies.

[CSY Man]

You need a license to carry paying passengers.
If your passengers are paying you, then the answer is probably yes.

[denverd0n]

I think we all know that you have to have a license if you are carrying paying passengers. I think in this case the underlying question is, if you never leave the dock are they really "passengers"?

That's the sort of thing that court cases decide. I would not call the Coast Guard to ask this question, just like I would not ask a cop for legal advice. The best answer is if you can find details of a court case that has established a precedent for this kind of thing. Second best would be to talk to an attorney versed in maritime law.

Good luck.

[hellosailor]

Fred-
Rent them the boat for bareboat charter. (Which of course may also not delight your insurer.) Now it is their boat, and you are free to sign a separate contract for plumbing lessons, electrical lessons, whatever. Again contracting that you will in no way captain the boat, the lessons will take place on whatever craft they happen to have available, whether it was chartered from you or otherwise.
The trick is, keep the captaining out of it. And make the charter part of the business into an arms-length charter, lessons or not. Besides your insurer, does your slip contract allow you to make commercial use of the boat? Many things to consider.

[lonesoldier0408]

Going to court, is like going to Vegas, they put on a show, to make it look like you could win. Then, they rape the non-prevailing party, to cover golf on Wednesday, with the Judge they bought.! [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[nautical62]

In accordance with coast guard policy if operating in waters governed by the coast guard you need a captains license to take pasangers out for hire defined as:


"Passenger for hire - means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent or any other person having an interest in the vessel. See 46 U.S.C. 2101(21a)

Consideration - means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including monetary payment going to an individual, person, or entity. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel food, beverage, or other supplies.
See 46 U.S.C. 2101(5a)"

http://msep.d11nuscgaux.info/docs/Se...nes_July07.pdf


Sailing schools, colleges, summer camps, etc. often have instructors who do not have captain's licenses for instruction taking place on waters not governed by the coast guard such as inland lakes.

[CSY Man]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Fred-
Rent them the boat for bareboat charter. (Which of course may also not delight your insurer.) Now it is their boat, and you are free to sign a separate contract for plumbing lessons, electrical lessons, whatever. Again contracting that you will in no way captain the boat, the lessons will take place on whatever craft they happen to have available, whether it was chartered from you or otherwise.
The trick is, keep the captaining out of it. And make the charter part of the business into an arms-length charter, lessons or not. Besides your insurer, does your slip contract allow you to make commercial use of the boat? Many things to consider.

Don't think the owner can be aboard for a bareboat charter, legally anyway.

[CSY Man]

. if you never leave the dock are they really "passengers"?

This guy was going to teach sail handling and salt water fishing and said he will leave the dock.
Now doubt you can teach culinary cooking and judo on a vessel tied to a dock without a license. That may change when the vessel is underway however.

[DreaminFred]

Originally Posted by nautical62

In accordance with coast guard policy if operating in waters governed by the coast guard you need a captains license to take pasangers out for hire defined as:


"Passenger for hire - means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent or any other person having an interest in the vessel. See 46 U.S.C. 2101(21a)

Consideration - means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including monetary payment going to an individual, person, or entity. It does not include a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel food, beverage, or other supplies.
See 46 U.S.C. 2101(5a)"

http://msep.d11nuscgaux.info/docs/Se...nes_July07.pdf


Sailing schools, colleges, summer camps, etc. often have instructors who do not have captain's licenses for instruction taking place on waters not governed by the coast guard such as inland lakes.

Seems relevant- do sailing schools on navigable waters only have captained instructors?

[tomdidit]

ASA instructors have captains license.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

Seems relevant- do sailing schools on navigable waters only have captained instructors?

The legal ones do.

There is a truncated six pac for instructors but it's pretty much the same requirements so most people just get the real one.

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by tomdidit

ASA instructors have captains license.

Some do, some don't. I'm an ASA certified instructor and don't have a captain's license. The ASA instructor courses do not include getting a captain's license. They are completely separate certifications.

Following is a link to a chart created by the ASA which gives some indication as to when those teaching sailing also need a captain's license and when they do not.




https://asa.com/pdf/USCG-questions.pdf

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by nautical62

Some do, some don't. I'm an ASA certified instructor and don't have a captain's license. The ASA instructor courses do not include getting a captain's license. They are completely separate certifications.

Following is a link to a chart created by the ASA which gives some indication as to when those teaching sailing also need a captain's license and when they do not.




https://asa.com/pdf/USCG-questions.pdf

Beat me to it. Some do, some dont. It depends on the opinion of the authority in the jurisdiction. So, as suggested earllier, check with the relevant local authorities because it is their opinion that will ultimately matter.

The referenced diagram was originally created by ASA after consulation with their local USCG and does not apply in all jurisdictions.

IMHO, just get a lisence. A limited lisence, like an OUPV (AKA "Six Pack"), is not that hard. And, there are now a slew of limited lisences to fit almost every situation. It is just the proper professional thing to do and keeps you out of hot water should you teach in another jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions take this VERY seriously...and if you get busted, in addition to the immediate legal hassle, you wont likely ever get a liscence.

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by Stumble

The legal ones do.

There is a truncated six pac for instructors but it's pretty much the same requirements so most people just get the real one.

And there are thousands of people hired by summer camps, sailing schools college programs, and other programs offering sailing instruction who do not have their captain's license and legally don't need it.

Refer to the ASA chart linked previously, but as Belizesailor said, that's a general guideline, not an absolute. Those wishing to offer sailing instruction should properly research laws applicable to their location, boats used, etc. Many seem to think a captain's license is legally needed for any and all sailing instruction and that simply is not true.