Insurance and accident free period

[Lake-Effect]

One might think the whole insurance industry is callous and greedy, then again, in this litigious world one must also consider the claims they are having to handle:

A woman may be in for a $5.2m (£4.2m) payout after she allegedly contracted a sexually transmitted infection while having sex in a car.

[AJA]

Originally Posted by billgewater

It gets worse. You may have had a non claim period for decades only to be told your boat can't be insured due to its age. Or they just believe that you will be happy with premium increases.
As a generalisation it is statistically important to recognize that the more policies you have e.g. boat, car, house medical etc. then the less likely is it that the insurance will ever pay off. That's why insurance companies do so well. Sadly, some organisations demand compulsory insurance and on closer examination the model seems a bit like a scam. i.e. there is kickback from the insurance company or an ongoing fee to the broker.

That’s what happened to me. I’ve got a 1974 Irwin CCKetch.
Haven’t been able to insure it since 2001. Never a claim, never a problem. We live on it every summer, and just passed a survey for a charter operation.
Guess I’ve got to just self insure. Thank God that’s only about 25k I have to stash away.

[smj]

Originally Posted by AJA

That’s what happened to me. I’ve got a 1974 Irwin CCKetch.

Haven’t been able to insure it since 2001. Never a claim, never a problem. We live on it every summer, and just passed a survey for a charter operation.

Guess I’ve got to just self insure. Thank God that’s only about 25k I have to stash away.

The 25k may cover your boat but what about the liability to other boats you may damage?

[Cpt Mark]

Originally Posted by AJA

That’s what happened to me. I’ve got a 1974 Irwin CCKetch.
Haven’t been able to insure it since 2001. Never a claim, never a problem. We live on it every summer, and just passed a survey for a charter operation.
Guess I’ve got to just self insure. Thank God that’s only about 25k I have to stash away.

So where did you get liability to cover the marina? Charter ops? 1 slip and fall would be disastrous. As an ex. I was Captain, USCG inspected vessel certified for 50 pax plus crew. Dead calm night on SF Bay, absolutely flat water, zero wind motoring slowly when a guest slipped and fell on the bone dry deck. This was a 55' catamaran btw. Just one of those things. Unfortunately she broke her leg. Actually, bone sticking out of hr leg. Had guest nurses onboard who took over. I called Coast Guard per regs and had an ambulance crew at the dock ready.

She said she didn't know how it happened. Wasn't drunk etc. Anyway she flew home where she'd find out she had a bone condition and would require multiple surgeries to correct. Out of work for over a year. She sued as expected. Co had fantastic legal counsels and the lawsuit went away but it still cost the co a lot of money and had they had he # 2 top rated lawyer instead of the #1, they would hae lost a lawsuit. You can get insurance for an older charter boat. That's a commercial policy which is different.

As far as not being able to insure an older boat, that is nonsense. i was Captain/Manager of a 1929 Fife sailboat. 95' ;made from solid teak, Insured for 4.5 million. There are quite a number of these floating around the world by rich people. LLoyds of London insures them but they have very, very strict rules re hurricane zones and inspections. Every 2.5 years the boat is surveyed by a LLyds approved surveyor. One survey is pretty routine, pull it out, sound the hull etc. The next one however is a bit more. EVERYTHING is removed from inside the vessel. Bunks, galley, plumbing, furniture. Down to just the bare hull where that is now inspected. Very costly.

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As I mentioned earlier, the USCG stats I refer to include all incidents where there is human injury or death, or the damage costs come in at over $2000. It is not limited to "accidents" per-se. Any event which results in these outcomes is included.

Mike,

Do you have a link to the database? I would be interested in taking a peek at it. I am a firm believer in data as well.

Thanks
Chris

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Interesting point. The state reporting requirements generally use the word "accident:"


https://beginboating.com/do-you-have...-requirements/


Minnesota requires reporting of "accidents or incidents" under statute:


https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/86B.341


The terms "accident" and "incident" are not defined in relevant statute. For Minnesota traffic laws, "accident" is (by statute) synonymous with "collision."


It is axiomatic that most boats that sink do so while in a slip. I would think that most weather related losses, fires, and boats sinking while at the dock, would not be seen by most people as related to a "collision."

Nice research.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

Mike,

Do you have a link to the database? I would be interested in taking a peek at it. I am a firm believer in data as well.

Thanks
Chris

Glad to post it again Chris. I'm fully with you about being data-driven,

Here is the collection of annual reports: https://www.uscgboating.org/statisti...statistics.php

And here is the database that includes all the data: https://bard.knightpoint.systems/Pub...e/Report1.aspx

It's not the most sophisticated database, but you can have hours of fun probing various categories and scenarios. I also just noticed the reports and database haven't included 2021 data yet. Hopefully soon...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

I posted in liveaboard today about my buddy, 4 years, no claims. Dock caught on fire, then hi boat...........The dock went up first. meth heads had been threatening him with burning his dock down so who knows what happened.

At the end of the day his ins co has told they will not renew. His broker has told him he cannot get ins anywhere at any price now.

Having a feud with meth heads, doesn't make for a great insurance risk.

[AJA]

Originally Posted by smj

The 25k may cover your boat but what about the liability to other boats you may damage?

You must sell insurance. You think like my insurance guy (who also plays a mean saxophone BTW)

Yeah, that's not a problem. Any company will sell you liability insurance. My agent got it for me at only $89 annually

And you've got to have liability insurance to store or haul or keep your boat anywhere that I know of.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by AJA

You must sell insurance. You think like my insurance guy (who also plays a mean saxophone BTW)

Yeah, that's not a problem. Any company will sell you liability insurance. My agent got it for me at only $89 annually

And you've got to have liability insurance to store or haul or keep your boat anywhere that I know of.

Liability insurance is generally pretty easy and cheap, but many people fail to mention it when talking about self-insuring. So it's a bit ambiguous whether they're self-insuring for the hull and paying for liability insurance vs thinking they can just self-insure for everything.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I have owned boats for 13 years, a 39' and a 41'. In this period, which includes almost 6 years of full time on the boat, I have had no boat accidents and ZERO insurance claims.

So it really pisses me off that all the insurance companies seem to care about is whether I have had a claim in the last 3 years. What kind of measurement of being safe is just 3 years? I feel like I am paying for those people who have have had claims in the last 3-10 years.

I feel the same about car insurance. I have over 30 years of zero claims there and again all they care is the last 3 years.

Wow must be nice.. Where I am they want the last 10 years of history, accidents, tickets (even ones that are off abstract). Personally I think its so that they have an excuse to qualify you as a higher risk, and therefore a higher premium! I even had one insurance company tell me I was technically a "new boater" in their eyes even though I've owned boats for 30 years, but happened to go a 2 year stretch without a boat (and therefore insurance) between my second last and current boat!

The bigger worry is insurance companies are more and more not interested in insuring anything older than 20 years!

[AJA]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Liability insurance is generally pretty easy and cheap, but many people fail to mention it when talking about self-insuring. So it's a bit ambiguous whether they're self-insuring for the hull and paying for liability insurance vs thinking they can just self-insure for everything.

Very good point! Its actually a lot more important than hull coverage. Damage someone's 5 million $ boat and you could be ruined.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by AJA

Very good point! Its actually a lot more important than hull coverage. Damage someone's 5 million $ boat and you could be ruined.

Exactly. Ideally, you only purchase insurance for the risks you can't afford. If repairing or replacing your own boat is no big deal if something major happens, no need to insure the hull. But if a major incident would mean you're out of boating for a long time, insurance makes sense. If you have a $200k boat you can't afford to replace, but a $5k hit isn't a big deal, there's no reason to pay extra for a $2k deductible instead of $5k.

Major liability is often a fairly low risk, but the potential costs are huge, so it's rare for liability coverage to not be worthwhile (and very few people could prove that they can adequately self-insure for liability, so marinas, etc. would be a problem without coverage).

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Liability insurance is generally pretty easy and cheap, but many people fail to mention it when talking about self-insuring. So it's a bit ambiguous whether they're self-insuring for the hull and paying for liability insurance vs thinking they can just self-insure for everything.

Liability only insurance is getting harder and harder to find and now generally requires a survey anyway, so if you have to get a survey, you might as well get full coverage as the difference is not enough to save the $$. In my case I had liability only insurance for a while (I was refitting and my boat was constantly changing). My annual premium for Liability only was $576 CAD. This past spring my renewal came up and they ( and others I talked to) needed a survey!! Anyway the difference in liability only premiums and full coverage was an additional $200. Good value if you ask me for the additional coverage!

[smj]

Originally Posted by AJA

You must sell insurance. You think like my insurance guy (who also plays a mean saxophone BTW)

Yeah, that's not a problem. Any company will sell you liability insurance. My agent got it for me at only $89 annually

And you've got to have liability insurance to store or haul or keep your boat anywhere that I know of.

I don’t sell insurance, but I do try to be responsible towards others property.