Whats the Difference Between A Coastal and Blue Water Suitable Vessel

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

....
Our opinions are very different..any decent offshore boat should easily survive a gale that lasted for 2 or 3 days. Fin keel spade rudder included

Yes off course, I agree with you. 2 or 3 days gales are not an unusual thing even on the right season and RCD class A boats, even the ones with the minimum standards are designed to survive that.

In fact I know personally several sailors that had crossed oceans or circumnavigated on small mass production boats and all of them had got 2 or 3 days gales. I bet Mark had caught some of those on his Beneteau 373.

Another thing is a storm or a violent storm and those are much more rare and almost nonexistent on the right season on low latitudes. Even so much of the boats with the right size are able to resist a 2 or 3 days storm even if most crews wouldn't.

Over than that, I mean violent storm and Hurricane I would say that small boats are not designed to sail on those conditions and even if one may survive, luck plays a role in it.

Regarding the point were I mention bigger boats its simply because stability in a sailboat is largely dependent on size and when a sailboat starts to be rolled by waves, luck plays a big role, in what regards maintaining the mast in one piece, in what regards a broken mast not damaging the boat, in what regards not to be hit with deadly force by flying objects when the boat is violently rolled, luck not to be hurt against the furniture on those rolls.

Not saying that a stronger more expensive boat has not less changes to be damaged on nasty conditions, only saying that all is relative and in what regards stability, there are many times no differences.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Polux

Let me rephrase that: All people that sail in any boat will die...sooner or later. That's sad but it is one of the things that makes us human.

Umm, let me rephrase that for you as you obviously only read the words:

All people die.



Which sums up my thoughts on all these trollish threads: Never be intelligent in a stupid thread.

And
The Titanic was a ship designed for blue water...



Mark

[thomm225]

Another difference between Coastal and Offshore Sailboats I have considered in responding to another CF'er concerning storms of gale strength or more would be pumps.

I have one bilge pump now. Should I try cruising well offshore I'd have a second one. I'd also repair the manual pump I have in the cockpit now and then maybe install a manual pump that I could operate from below

knowing your boat and being in "heavy weather situations" while coastal cruising also helps you gain experience. Not only that the waves are usually much steeper and break earlier in a shallow bay than offshore so you do learn quite a bit just being out there coastal cruising when getting caught in weather.

No real need to sail offshore to get caught in a Gale for practice, but you do need to have a plan if you should run into bad weather

Here is a nice video by James Baldwin on a Jordan Drogue he tested in near gale force winds on his 28' Triton sailboat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUfHUGHwdaw

[zeehag]

wot!? NO jerry jugs on blue water boat???

damn someone better tell this to jeff hartjoy, now working his 4th cape in a baba 40 with ....
JERRY JUGS!!!!!!!

omygods the horror!!!!

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes off course, I agree with you. 2 or 3 days gales are not an unusual thing even on the right season and RCD class A boats, even the ones with the minimum standards are designed to survive that.

In fact I know personally several sailors that had crossed oceans or circumnavigated on small mass production boats and all of them had got 2 or 3 days gales. I bet Mark had caught some of those on his Beneteau 373.

Another thing is a storm or a violent storm and those are much more rare and almost nonexistent on the right season on low latitudes. Even so much of the boats with the right size are able to resist a 2 or 3 days storm even if most crews wouldn't.

Over than that, I mean violent storm and Hurricane I would say that small boats are not designed to sail on those conditions and even if one may survive, luck plays a role in it.

Regarding the point were I mention bigger boats its simply because stability in a sailboat is largely dependent on size and when a sailboat starts to be rolled by waves, luck plays a big role, in what regards maintaining the mast in one piece, in what regards a broken mast not damaging the boat, in what regards not to be hit with deadly force by flying objects when the boat is violently rolled, luck not to be hurt against the furniture on those rolls.

Not saying that a stronger more expensive boat has not less changes to be damaged on nasty conditions, only saying that all is relative and in what regards stability, there are many times no differences.

There is no debate that larger boats resist rolling much better than smaller boats and to that end they are safer. That said there is a limit to the size of a boat a typical couple can safely handle in strong winds and large seas. Personally without the use of electric or hydraulic aids we purposely limited ourselves to a 42 foot boat because when the sh*t hits the fan we are able to handle it.We could easily sail a 60 footer in normal conditions but could never handle it in a serious ongoing blow. Also keep in mind that when there are just 2 of you on a long passage the off watch person is often sleeping so you are operating like a single hander.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Polux

In fact I know personally several sailors that had crossed oceans or circumnavigated on small mass production boats and all of them had got 2 or 3 days gales. I bet Mark had caught some of those on his Beneteau 373.

Me? No! Only an idiot sails in a place/time when you can get a 3 day gale!

My whole voyaging analysis is to sail in the correct season when you do not get 3 day gales.

Its totally unnecessary to sail at the wrong time and virtually every death at sea in the last few years that I remember is from sailing at the wrong time.
Stupidity kills.


Mark

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by zeehag

wot!? NO jerry jugs on blue water boat???

damn someone better tell this to jeff hartjoy, now working his 4th cape in a baba 40 with ....
JERRY JUGS!!!!!!!

omygods the horror!!!!

We met a couple on a Morgan 41 in the Marshall Islands that had jerry cans lining both sides of the boat almost from stem to stern and doubled in some areas. Never seen anything like this. We visited them in air conditioned luxury and found that they never sailed, some motor sailing but mostly motored everywhere. Wonderful couple doing their thing!

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Me? No! Only an idiot sails in a place/time when you can get a 3 day gale!

My whole voyaging analysis is to sail in the correct season when you do not get 3 day gales.

Its totally unnecessary to sail at the wrong time and virtually every death at sea in the last few years that I remember is from sailing at the wrong time.
Stupidity kills.


Mark

Now this is useful information!

And it speaks volumes.

The sailor is more important than the boat most of the time.

It's also probably better time spent learning their methods concerning seasonal sailing etc rather than spending tons of money on that super so called blue water boat.

Webb Childs seems to know seasonal sailing also since he has sailed his Moore 24 from San Diego to I believe New Zealand

A Moore 24 doesn't fit the idea of a Blue Water Boat in the minds of most (disp: 2050 lbs)

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=246

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Good morning Rustic Charm,

First off, I want to say that the terms have never really been defined. Which is why opinions vary so much, we don't even know what exactly we are talking about. If you look at Australia, you will see that coastal cruising is different for different parts of it. Some places have whirlpools, others, cyclones, others are isolated. Once away from Darwin, headed west, the cruiser will need a whole lot more stowage space for food stores and need to be more self-sustaining and repair capable than Sydney sailors, for instance, for whom food, fuel and water are readily available. So there is one component: the ability to be self-reliant.

The Tasmanian sailor has higher latitude issues, and i think the Tasmanian built boats tend to be built for local conditions, which will mean that the Tassie coastal cruiser is also capable of safe enough ocean crossings, she should be able to handle wind-against-the-tide situations during frontal passages in Banks Strait. If she is very small, she might, with the addition of deck cargo, to have a go at one of the long crossings, but the boat herself will definitely be ocean capable. Another factor: ocean capable. (Some new boats lack handholds. At sea, you need handholds or finger rails to move around the boat when it's really lurchy.)

Now, there are more benign places in the world to sail, Southern California, comes to mind, or maybe Queensland without thunderstorms and cyclones, most of the year. The lightly built boats do fine in both places. They wear large sails, too, half of which would not serve in Northern Calif, let alone the PNW, or the north European crowd. What seems to me to be happening is that people are now forced by their budgets into buying boats that were designed as day sailors, and maybe weekenders, then they add the "normal" safety gear that you, from Tassie, would already have, having been built into a local boat. And so, the building of entry level yachts has cut strength, and given style not particularly designed to work in a seaway and created an entry market to get people "hooked on" sailboats. Therefore, we have a moving target, for defining what we're trying to talk about.

I think the reason we have so much discussion of coastal vs. bluewater cruising is that there is no agreed upon definition, and that many CF'ers probably will not do many bluewater miles, hence don't really know what they are posting about, having only what they have read and seen videos of to give themselves an idea of what it is like, rather than having own experience. You can easily see where the conflict comes from: who has a boat, likes their boat. The guy from the PNW says it has to be able to withstand a big northern hemisphere blow. And it needs this and that to do it. The devil is in the details, because one guy thinks he needs a full keel ketch to do it safely, another says his cutaway forefoot cutter's better, another says his Beneteau is fine for it, and another chimes in with his Catamaran's a great boat.....very little consensus, and they all want to defend their boat choice. Meanwhile, I suspect the sailors are out sailing their boats rather than writing about it, weather permitting.

Ann

Spectacular...
What I meant.. but with so much more elegance and intelligence..

[sailorboy1]

People like to quote books so I'll toss one

"Armchair admirals and chat-room bores may warn dolorously of lightweight structures failing in big seas and rigs crumpling at the merest hint of a hurricane, but given good preparation and a capable crew, the typical production boat is quite capable of surviving some very nasty conditions. For the trade wind passages that make up the bulk of bluewater cruising, there should be no argument about whether a suitably prepared production boat will make it across an ocean. For sailors who can’t afford or justify one of the high-ticket deluxe cruising boats, it’s good to know there are plenty of good options among the ranks of moderately priced production cruisers."

[sailorboy1]

BTW - I don't really care what a bluewater boat or a coastal boat is anymore, I don't want either. I want a boat that is a good cruising passage maker. To me so many of the boats that get thrown around in these useful discussions would be a terrible cruising passage maker.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Polux

There are no such boats, much less small sailboats. Only ships can do that and even those sometimes sunk.

Regarding crew competence it is hard to tell what is the required competence to can stand as much as a boat can stand but the truth is that most sailboats are abandoned by the crew much before they are in real risk of sinking and most of those crews are considered experienced and certainly were if compared with the average.

Ahhh...!! There lies the Crux.. what defines experience..
There have been so-called 'Experienced Skippers' spoken of here.. other self claimed 'Experienced.. however when it boils down to it they are experienced in one form of sailing and in favourable conditions.. 'Wolfhound' to name one.. an 'Oyster'.. hailed by many as 'Blue Water'..
I do not care how many Med.. Channel races you've competed in if you are not able to face a few days with cold food and DR navigation to save your boat. rather call a 'May Day' to haul ass's off and abandon the boat.. you are not yet qualified experience wise..
The crew lost on the Bene.. again.. a race crew with a cocky young skipper chose an insane non-stop route on someone else's boat and paid the price.. once again.. hailed for the experience.. but the wrong sort.
Regarding Llyods Standards.. its what boats like Rival's, Westerly's, Sadlers, Hurleys, Moody's etc were built too.. brick shithouse boats.
That's why Bene etc crashed us out of the mass yacht market.. Brits are slow to change.. and in some case's refuse.
Another thing one should remember.. the UK.. unlike the rest of the EU countries follows regulations to the letter.. and looking at the build standard of some Continental boat builders these days.. I'm glad they do.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The crew lost on the Bene.. again.. a race crew with a cocky young skipper chose an insane non-stop route on someone else's boat and paid the price.. once again.. hailed for the experience..

Sailed in the WRONG SEASON!

(I take it you are referring to Cheeky Refeaky?)

If they sailed the right season they wouldn't have had the bad weather that snapped off the previously half broken keel.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Me? No! Only an idiot sails in a place/time when you can get a 3 day gale!

My whole voyaging analysis is to sail in the correct season when you do not get 3 day gales.

Its totally unnecessary to sail at the wrong time and virtually every death at sea in the last few years that I remember is from sailing at the wrong time.
Stupidity kills.


Mark

You must not sail in my grounds then. A gale can come up in a matter of hours and last for several days any time of year. The north pacific can be unforgiving at the drop of a hat.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by newhaul

You must not sail in my grounds then. A gale can come up in a matter of hours and last for several days any time of year. The north pacific can be unforgiving at the drop of a hat.

Good point. I think Marks comments are about the trade wind routes and staying around 20/20 degrees. When you are sailing in the 50 plus latitudes weather is not so kind. I've sailed back from Hawaii 4 times enroute to Vancouver and I have encountered gales on every trip so my belief is that it's almost expected. If you had enough fuel that allowed you to motor through the high then you might miss most if not all the lows tracking across the top