Safety and Cruising

[caradow]

Danger ,crime, and evil are ubiquitous.
Have sailed the Caribbean since the late 70's.
Lived in Kingston Jamaica for 4 years and traveled throughout the island extensively. Saw a lot of crime there, all native against native, including numerous people who had battery acid thrown in their face. Never against myself. Have also lived in Barbados for 3 years, never a problem.
Have sailed and traveled in places like the dreaded St. Vincent, Venezuela, and Cuba. Never a problem. Have traveled thru Mexico, Guatemala, and Belize again never a problem.
Also have worked in an inner city Hospital ED here in the North East. In the summertime gunshots can sometimes be heard when you walk out the door. Again never a problem.
Maybe "Fortuna" has been on my side or maybe it is because I NEVER let my guard down and I treat the locals with respect and try to understand their way of life.
A few months ago my catamaran was in the Cayman Islands which is obviously one of the richest islands in the Caribbean. I had her docked in a gated upscale community where all the houses cost at least $2 million.
My RIB was on my swim platform and a heavy cable was around a 20 HP Yamaha. Thieves cut my cable and stole my outboard in the middle of the night.
I have two daughters and a son that have traveled with me 80% of the time.
I do not consider myself lacking when it comes to caring about their safety.
I will continue to sail the Caribbean because it has enriched me and my family's life tremendously.
The world in general is a dangerous place.....a little street smarts can go a long way wherever you roam.
Statistics can be manipulated to anything you want them to be.
Just watch the evening news regarding political issues from CNN to Fox!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Goboatingnow,
I have known brave men in my life and I have known cowards. They are impossible to distinguish in a crowd. But the real question is when faced with imminent danger is not whether you respond as a brave man or a coward, but rather will you be able to survive the psychological trauma of the experience and move on with cruising and your life? And will, after the fact, you be able to forge ahead with the same passion and resolve you had before the devastating encounter? Whether you evaluate the risk as moderate or low, to not be prepared psychologically is akin to being the proverbial ostrich with its head in the sand. How will you progress as a person or a couple and what will be your passion for cruising if you were the unfortunate soul who was recently attacked in the Caribbean by a machete wielding thug and robbed and cleaved across your face with an obvious intent to maim or kill with no provocation or warning? In business, we look at worst case scenarios as an evaluator for risk versus profit and determine whether the risk is worth the gain. We would all be foolish not to consider this model when we decide where we choose to cruise. Fearful? This is a very poor choice of words. Good luck and good sailing.

Worst case scenario is you'll sink/explode/capsize/be attacked by pirates/etc etc the instant you leave the dock. The only sure way to avoid this is to not leave the dock.

And even then you could still sink/explode.......

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

rognvald, I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that one should not assess the risks in any particular country, town, harbour or anchorage visited, nor that precautions should not be taken. Where others differ, I suspect, is that they do not necessarily place great weight on the 'worst-case scenario', particularly where it is extremely unlikely - and lets face it, there is a risk of losing one's life evey time we step outside, or indeed, every time we stay inside!

Brad

Living has a 100% mortality rate.

[rognvald]

So, for those who are planning to revisit the Caribbean after a hiatus of several years or for those who desire to go for the first time, the camps seems to fall into two columns: "Group A" either denies that the conditions have changed in the cruising grounds over the last ten years and/or accepts the changes and believes that they are not significant enough to alter their cruising itinerary. They are also firm believers that there is risk in the world everywhere and that they are willing to accept that risk, which they believe is small, to cruise these areas. One thing these respondents have not made clear is whether they travel together in groups and frequent popular anchorages and/or marinas or sail alone and prefer to be away from the crowds in isolated anchorages. "Group B," of which I consider myself, consists of those who have traveled to those areas in the past(or those going for the first time) when the issue of crime(theft, robbery, assault, rape and mayhem) were virtually non-existent and believe the considerable reports that have plagued the cruising community in recent years. We also are firm believers that there is risk in the world everywhere but now question whether the risk is worth the reward especially when traveling with a female and preferring to anchor in secluded anchorages outside the popular cruising favorites and away from the crowd. For any of us to believe that the world is not changing in dramatic ways would be foolish and naïve. We must factor these changes with a good dose of reason, experience and common sense when we decide what will be ultimately fulfilling for us when we cast our lines and head away from the dock. Fortunately, there still remains beautiful and remote areas that can be cruised without any fear of crime where one's only fears may be that which they encounter in Nature and the level of their personal experience. For those of us in the latter group, the vision and direction of our future cruising may be dramatically different as we seek to recapture those earlier experiences of cruising that shaped and enriched our lives. Good luck and good sailing.

[caradow]

Guess I am a group A
I sail "off the grid" as much as possible.
The BVI,S AND Grenadines are way too crowed!
Never cruised with a "flotilla"
Always a lone boat.
However I am not in denial that the world is a more dangerous place just have made the PRIVATE decision to not let that stop me. Simply because in my lifetime I have witnessed some remarkable situations in man's humanity. These ironically were in some of the most"dangerous" places. That has in itself greatly enriched my life.

[caradow]

Also please list the "beautiful remote areas that are free of crime".
I would love to go.(

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by caradow

Also please list the "beautiful remote areas that are free of crime".
I would love to go.(

Caradow,

Among my favorites that I intend to cruise or have cruised in the past are: to the North--Newfoundland, Labrador, Baffin Island and Greenland and to the South--The 1000 Islands on Florida's West Coast, the Gulf side of the Florida Keys (Johnston Key/Big Spanish Channel area), the Marquesas Keys between Key West and Ft. Jefferson, the keys of the Cay Sal Bank in the SW Bahamas just north of Cuba, The Ragged Island chain of Keys SW of the Exumas, and Andros Island south of Fresh Creek are but a few areas that you could spend unlimited time and seldom encounter another boat and would never have a concern for crime. However, if you're looking for the herd, their hooves are stomping elsewhere. Good luck and good sailing.

[caradow]

Ah yes Labrador and Newfoundland have always intrigued me.
I agree, truly beautiful from the pictures I have seen and I have looked at them many times with the desire to go. Have only been as far north as Nova Scotia and that was in the Marblehead-Halifax race so unfortunately did not have much time to enjoy the country.
Been to the Florida Keys many times but they really don't do anything for me.
Also have sailed through the Bahamas numerous times but I have not been to Andros.
However speaking of crime, I sailed into Norman's Cay in the Exuma's back in the 70's and the only thing there at the time was a small bar with some unfriendly types that I found out were some of Carlos Lehder's (Co-founder of the Medellin Cartel) men. I could't figure out why they looked like guerillas being on a small island. :-) It was not till I returned that I realized who I was trying to carry on a conversation with.
So.......I guess that's an example where a place has become more safe through the years?
Maybe some day we will share the same anchorage in Labrador.
Wishing you safe passages.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by caradow

Also please list the "beautiful remote areas that are free of crime".
I would love to go.(

Chesterfield reef and Huon reef are beautiful, remote, and crime free.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Chesterfield reef and Huon reef are beautiful, remote, and crime free.

OOhhh, I dunno about that! Did you ever really watch the Frigate birds (which nest on Chesterfield)? They make their living stealing prey from other birds!

Cheers,

Jim

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rognvald

So, for those who are planning to revisit the Caribbean after a hiatus of several years or for those who desire to go for the first time, the camps seems to fall into two columns: "Group A" either denies that the conditions have changed in the cruising grounds over the last ten years and/or accepts the changes and believes that they are not significant enough to alter their cruising itinerary. They are also firm believers that there is risk in the world everywhere and that they are willing to accept that risk, which they believe is small, to cruise these areas. One thing these respondents have not made clear is whether they travel together in groups and frequent popular anchorages and/or marinas or sail alone and prefer to be away from the crowds in isolated anchorages. "Group B," of which I consider myself, consists of those who have traveled to those areas in the past(or those going for the first time) when the issue of crime(theft, robbery, assault, rape and mayhem) were virtually non-existent and believe the considerable reports that have plagued the cruising community in recent years. We also are firm believers that there is risk in the world everywhere but now question whether the risk is worth the reward especially when traveling with a female and preferring to anchor in secluded anchorages outside the popular cruising favorites and away from the crowd. For any of us to believe that the world is not changing in dramatic ways would be foolish and naïve. We must factor these changes with a good dose of reason, experience and common sense when we decide what will be ultimately fulfilling for us when we cast our lines and head away from the dock. Fortunately, there still remains beautiful and remote areas that can be cruised without any fear of crime where one's only fears may be that which they encounter in Nature and the level of their personal experience. For those of us in the latter group, the vision and direction of our future cruising may be dramatically different as we seek to recapture those earlier experiences of cruising that shaped and enriched our lives. Good luck and good sailing.

While this is a thoughtful insight , it is fundamentally flawed. Statistics show that in fact in many countries crime rates are falling , equally some places experience an upswing in crime , especially in economic swings. In general , unlike many , which believe the world is going to a hell in a hand basket , many places where cruisers could not sail are now available to cruisers and equally so e areas are perhaps more difficult.

What is clear is that this inflated sense of fear , seems unjustified as a general view. Attacks on cruisers remain rare that's clear , even looking at the Caribbean Numbers.

Personally I blame 24 hour news media, events are hyped , situations are over emphasised and so much news" gets off" on generating fear. This is then added to by governments who trade on fear to implement policy change.

My perceptions are that this " state" is heightened for Americans, who nostalgically view the past through a " apple pie " lenses. Maybe you grew up with the back door unlocked and now see " crime" everywhere. I do think this is unfortunate. But the evidence is we are not in an increasingly violent society.

My view is that sensible precautions are always necessary and one must always keep the personal radar running. But generally, short of inserting yourself into a violent area , your chances of being the victim of anymore then trivial crime is very slim indeed

Dave

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by rognvald

......."Group B," of which I consider myself, consists of those who have traveled to those areas in the past(or those going for the first time) when the issue of crime(theft, robbery, assault, rape and mayhem) were virtually non-existent and believe the considerable reports that have plagued the cruising community in recent years........

You are re-writing history here. I cruised the Caribbean 25 years ago from the Bahamas to Venezuela. At that time I remember Charlotte Amelia being referred to as Charlotte Armpit and the national sport of St Thomas being referred to as rape. Not long after we left Margarita Island in Venezuela a cruiser was murdered there. The stories today are the same as they were back then. One country goes up in crime while another goes down. With better communications today peoples perceptions of crime is magnified, as they hear crime reports over thousands of miles.

[Cuttyhunk]

Originally Posted by Paul L

You are re-writing history here. I cruised the Caribbean 25 years ago from the Bahamas to Venezuela. At that time I remember Charlotte Amelia being referred to as Charlotte Armpit and the national sport of St Thomas being referred to as rape. Not long after we left Margarita Island in Venezuela a cruiser was murdered there. The stories today are the same as they were back then. One country goes up in crime while another goes down. With better communications today peoples perceptions of crime is magnified, as they hear crime reports over thousands of miles.

I agree; I remember similar things. Twenty years ago, when I cruised from Key Largo to Grenada, we had only one incident on our boat, and it was kind of amusing. We blew our head gasket (long story) while at anchor in Guanica, just off the landing of a local reform school for boys. They allowed us to use their dock. One day we went off in a rental car and unexpectedly stayed away overnight. Upon our return, we were greeted by the principal. He told us a couple of boys had taken our dink for a ride and they had to apologize to us. We got back to the boat and found that they had gone through the cabin. Nothing was missing that we could tell, but many of our CDs had been gone through. Evidently the boys did not like our taste in music, because not one was missing!

I will tell you that my best cruising friends from that time are in the Bahamas right now, for the third year since retiring for good, and they have told me how different things are with the much bigger, fancier boats that everyone seems to have. In those days I had a CSY 33 and it was average size for the Bahamas, and a little on the small side for down island. The CSY looked a little unkempt and that seemed to me to be a good idea…we didn't look like we had much to steal.

When I go back down there again, our boat will not be a fancy one and nobody's going to want the dink's Honda 2.3 engine, either. The last thing I want when cruising is to have everyone in town think I've got tons of money (and/or arrogance) based on the boat I'm on, the dink I'm driving, or the attitude I project.

PS: I am a genuine female person, and if I feel uneasy anywhere, I leave. That is one of the joys of cruising, you can leave.

[sec906]

Originally Posted by rognvald

An interesting statistic appears in the following article which states that the Caribbean comprises 8.5% of the world's population yet records 27% of the world's murder rate. Should this information be ignored by the cruising community as inaccurate? ...

Exactly! Those statistics are not valid for this comparison, quite safely ignored as inaccurate.

And you misquoted the article, which states "...Latin America and the Caribbean is home to 8.5% of the global population and yet 27% of the world's murders take place in the region."

It amounts to 8.5% of the world population only if you include "Caribbean countries" such as Brazil, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, and the rest of South America*.

I don't think the high-crime areas of these countries overlap a great deal with what most of us consider the cruising areas in the Caribbean.

*Looking at Wikipedia's list of the population of Caribbean countries, which is 8.3% of the world's population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by sec906

Exactly! Those statistics are not valid for this comparison, quite safely ignored as inaccurate.

And you misquoted the article, which states "...Latin America and the Caribbean is home to 8.5% of the global population and yet 27% of the world's murders take place in the region."

It amounts to 8.5% of the world population only if you include "Caribbean countries" such as Brazil, Mexico, Chile, Venezuela, and the rest of South America*. .....

This is all about perception. You shouldn't throw away or debunk pseudo-facts and selected anecdotes that mess up the preconceived notion

There are cities within the true Caribbean that have astoundingly high murder rates. San Salvador in El Salvador for example. Most of it is gang related. But that has little to do with cruising the eastern Carib.