Harness at sea

[barcoMeCasa]

Originally Posted by barcoMeCasa

Been living onboard constantly for 18 years usually on the move anchoring, same grigri, same steel crabs. All lasts fine, just a rinse down with fresh water now and then and a drop of oil. Webbing buckle can get stiff with salt so needs a wash & dab of fabric conditioner. Actually thanks! Just added it to the monthly to do check sheet,memory not so good as it once was

Anything ali doesn't last well.

Just checked, it's actually a grillion, istr Petzl changed the design a bit & the name couple of decades ago. Anyone temped it's a really good idea to put some practice in first >

[jcapo]

In my younger days I only used a harness when it was really nasty. Now at 77 I just bough a Spinlock Deckvest and I will use it.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by madforboats

... Especially on a cat which is both more stable and has a greater beam meaning you can't attach to the jackstays and reach the mast. (I assume someone has fixed this issue although I've not seen it).....

a. The jackstays do not need to run along the edge of the deck. Instead, run them along the top edge of the cabin, almost like a railing. Not under foot and farther from the edge.


b. You can reach the mast if the longer tether is more than 6'. Have a custom tether made.


c. Have another clipping point near the mast base. That is a common work place, where things go wrong. Another jackline that goes part way to the furler (but not all the way; the tether should stop you before you go over the beam, should you stuff a wave.


No, I don't think most sailors tether up in benign conditions. But you should practice in benign conditions to learn the rhythm and work any snags out of the system.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by madforboats

please excuse what might be an obvious question but I've just started sailing after a life on motor boats.
As I've been undertaking my certifications as I build up to do some coastal and then hopefully offshore and ocean sailing I've been onboard with a lot of instructors and race professionals. When we get into open waters they are very insistent on using a harness every time anyone leaves the cockpit. The reasons why are obvious. The deck moves a lot and an MOB situation is dangerous. But, ( this is just true not a statement of how it ought to be), attaching and moving about clipping and unclipping a harness is a pain in the ass. Especially on a cat which is both more stable and has a greater beam meaning you can't attach to the jackstays and reach the mast. (I assume someone has fixed this issue although I've not seen it).
So my question is - when cruising, in say a 15 knot breeze with a lazy 1m swell do most people still harness up when going outside of the cockpit?
In a car the seatbelt is much less annoying but before there were rules around it (and fines) lots of people didn't wear them despite the very obvious safety advantages.
Nowadays if I asked "when driving down to the shops on a suburban road do most people wear a seatbelt" I'd say the answer is almost universally "yes". Is it the same with harnesses or do sailors "take a risk based approach and make a call depending on conditions".
thanks for your input and teaching a newbie....

A warm welcome to the sailing fraternity!

Your question is an excellent one, the discussion of which will be interesting for beginners and old salts alike.

As others have said -- if you fall overboard underway, even in good weather, you will probably die. So you should start with that premise. A useful metaphor (which I did not invent) is standing on the edge of the roof of a 50 story building. That's the edge of the deck. How comfortable are you there?

In my day job I actually do walk around on the roofs of 50 story buildings. In good weather, if the building isn't heaving like a boat in rough waves, I'm cool walking around there without any harness. I'm careful and methodical in my motions. Same on the boat.

Likewise on my boat -- with wide decks, if the motion isn't too bad, I don't personally -- which doesn't mean you have to do the same -- wear a harness (or a life jacket). I am careful and methodical in my motions, and I'm careful to keep a hand on the boat at all times ("one hand for the ship and one hand for yourself" is an old sailor's adage) and am very careful about tripping and I feel pretty good. Your case may be different. Or not.

In more lively weather I wear my lifejacket and clip on, when I'm out of the cockpit.

Another really important consideration -- are you alone on deck? If you go over when no one can see it happen, that is a whole different ballgame.

I try to avoid going forward when I'm alone on deck, and absolutely don't do it at night. One of the safety rules on my boat is no one leaves the cockpit at night while alone on deck. Hard to follow this rule when single handing, so it can be somewhat aspirational.

A few more important considerations:

1. It's good to practice MOB drills with your crew. Not just picking up fenders, but picking up actual live people in the water, and hauling them out. It is much harder than you think to get a MOB out of the water, especially if the weather is at all lively. A lot of MOBs die even after they've been found, because the crew can't get them out. It's incredible how many sailors who do regular MOB drills don't even think about this aspect of it.

2. Practice makes perfect. Also a fixed routine where you store whatever you are using in case of MOB always in the same place. Someone else can talk about life slings, Danbuoys, and other gear we use. Also there are different possible procedures for how you do it if you are under sail.

3. Most MOB deaths occur because the casualty can't be found. Without technological assistance, it can be impossible to find someone even seconds after he or she goes over, even in the day time. That's why it's good practice to have an AIS/DSC MOB beacon in every life jacket used by crew on watch. This will automatically go off if someone goes over, will set off an ear-splitting DSC alarm on the boat, and guide you to the casualty. Incredibly valuable, eliminating one whole part of the risk.

4. Another ugly risk is going over the side while tethered on. A standard tether will hold your face into the oncoming water, drowning you almost instantly. Two things to do about this: a. tie on where there isn't enough slack in the tether that you can go over the side (this is very challenging); b. buy those new lifejackets which let you spin around so that your back is to the water flow. Spinlock makes one; probably there are others.

Good luck, and post about your adventures as you gain experience.

[davil]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A warm welcome to the sailing fraternity!

Your question is an excellent one, the discussion of which will be interesting for beginners and old salts alike.

As others have said -- if you fall overboard underway, even in good weather, you will probably die. So you should start with that premise. A useful metaphor (which I did not invent) is standing on the edge of the roof of a 50 story building. That's the edge of the deck. How comfortable are you there?

In my day job I actually do walk around on the roofs of 50 story buildings. In good weather, if the building isn't heaving like a boat in rough waves, I'm cool walking around there without any harness. I'm careful and methodical in my motions. Same on the boat.

Likewise on my boat -- with wide decks, if the motion isn't too bad, I don't personally -- which doesn't mean you have to do the same -- wear a harness (or a life jacket). I am careful and methodical in my motions, and I'm careful to keep a hand on the boat at all times ("one hand for the ship and one hand for yourself" is an old sailor's adage) and am very careful about tripping and I feel pretty good. Your case may be different. Or not.

In more lively weather I wear my lifejacket and clip on, when I'm out of the cockpit.

Another really important consideration -- are you alone on deck? If you go over when no one can see it happen, that is a whole different ballgame.

I try to avoid going forward when I'm alone on deck, and absolutely don't do it at night. One of the safety rules on my boat is no one leaves the cockpit at night while alone on deck. Hard to follow this rule when single handing, so it can be somewhat aspirational.

A few more important considerations:

1. It's good to practice MOB drills with your crew. Not just picking up fenders, but picking up actual live people in the water, and hauling them out. It is much harder than you think to get a MOB out of the water, especially if the weather is at all lively. A lot of MOBs die even after they've been found, because the crew can't get them out. It's incredible how many sailors who do regular MOB drills don't even think about this aspect of it.

2. Practice makes perfect. Also a fixed routine where you store whatever you are using in case of MOB always in the same place. Someone else can talk about life slings, Danbuoys, and other gear we use. Also there are different possible procedures for how you do it if you are under sail.

3. Most MOB deaths occur because the casualty can't be found. Without technological assistance, it can be impossible to find someone even seconds after he or she goes over, even in the day time. That's why it's good practice to have an AIS/DSC MOB beacon in every life jacket used by crew on watch. This will automatically go off if someone goes over, will set off an ear-splitting DSC alarm on the boat, and guide you to the casualty. Incredibly valuable, eliminating one whole part of the risk.

4. Another ugly risk is going over the side while tethered on. A standard tether will hold your face into the oncoming water, drowning you almost instantly. Two things to do about this: a. tie on where there isn't enough slack in the tether that you can go over the side (this is very challenging); b. buy those new lifejackets which let you spin around so that your back is to the water flow. Spinlock makes one; probably there are others.

Good luck, and post about your adventures as you gain experience.

=====================================

I like your points

I checked all of your comments and I do exactly same.

I single hand so installed furlers on both jib and main, prefer not to leave the cockpit.

If I have a crew I tell them in case they go overboard because they were NOT clipped will try my most to FIND them and bring them aboard BEFORE they died of HYPOTHERMIA,or before the sharks get them.
with the disclaimer
NO WARRANTY FROM MANAGEMENT.

[Mike OReilly]

On our smallish sailboat (two-person crew) we rarely tether. We only clip in once the sea state makes foredeck work precarious -- it's not about the wind, it's about how lumpy the seas are.

The exception to this is when we're passage-making, and the off-watch crew is down below, likely asleep. This is usually at night, so dark as well. Here we have a rule that no one even steps into the cockpit without a tether on. The prospect of waking for your watch and finding no one else on board crosses our threshold of risk.

[Kettlewell]

On our boat the center cockpit is protected by a hard pilothouse, and even when working the sheets one is very deep within the boat. Falling overboard would be very hard. In normal weather I wouldn't dream of wearing a clumsy lifejacket or harness that would make me less safe. If it's rough, especially at night, I will wear a harness going forward when offshore, but I try to avoid having to do that in the first place. By the way, if you think inflatable lifejackets are the way to go please try one out to see what happens when in the water. My wife slipped and fell in from a kayak (in the harbor), the inflatable popped open, and made it very hard for her to get out of the water while entangled with the kayak line. She's an excellent swimmer and having to kick around on her back made it harder for her.

[JPK]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

By the way, if you think inflatable lifejackets are the way to go please try one out to see what happens when in the water. My wife slipped and fell in from a kayak (in the harbor), the inflatable popped open, and made it very hard for her to get out of the water while entangled with the kayak line. She's an excellent swimmer and having to kick around on her back made it harder for her.

Going down this tangent a bit further (apologies in advance)... I few years ago I had a couple of Mustang inflatable PFD's that had expired inflators that I needed to replace. Mine had the optional crotch straps added. The spare did not. I tried them both out in my swimming pool and the results were sobering. The PFD with the crotch straps had me floating with my chin above the water. The PFD without the crotch straps had me floating with the water just barely below my nose. If you happen to fall in the water unconscious for whatever reason with an inflatable PFD without a crotch strap and there's any sort of sea state you will drown. I've since switched to using a Spinlock Deckvest Vito as my primary, and it has a built-in crotch strap. It's completely unnoticeable when on.

[Mike OReilly]

We wear our inflatables (Spinlocks) pretty much all the time while underway. I find them comfortable, with no impact on my ability to move around. In fact, I so often forget I'm even wearing them that I sometimes get teased when I'm walking around on shore, having forgotten to take it off.

I have done the inflatable test, and indeed, without a crotch-strap, you might be better off not having one on. This is where the Spinlock is so much better than my old Mustang.

My Spinlock, like my Mustang before, has an integrated harness, so it's easy to clip into the tether when needed. This makes tethering an easier option.

[davil]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

We wear our inflatables (Spinlocks) pretty much all the time while underway. I find them comfortable, with no impact on my ability to move around. In fact, I so often forget I'm even wearing them that I sometimes get teased when I'm walking around on shore, having forgotten to take it off.

I have done the inflatable test, and indeed, without a crotch-strap, you might be better off not having one on. This is where the Spinlock is so much better than my old Mustang.

My Spinlock, like my Mustang before, has an integrated harness, so it's easy to clip into the tether when needed. This makes tethering an easier option.

================================
yes on the crotch -strap

an idea

I have the offshore version WITHOUT crotch-straps in very good condition, did stitch on nylon web straps with a latch on (careful when stitching not to perforate the bladder)

[JPK]

Mustang Survival sells a leg strap accessory that can be retrofitted to many inflatable PFD's without sewing.

https://mustangsurvival.com/collecti...cessory-ma3032

[Gudgeon]

It is a very personal decision. On our days sails in clam seas and warn water I don't wear a PFD, night time and crossings a PFD and tether is used. With the inprovements in comfort and keeping you face up the new generation PFDs make wearing a PFD a no brainer. I have upgraded the PFDs on the boat to the Spinlock Vito's.

[JBP]

Originally Posted by madforboats

Especially on a cat which is both more stable and has a greater beam meaning you can't attach to the jackstays and reach the mast. (I assume someone has fixed this issue although I've not seen it).

There are lots of ways to rig your jacklines and you are right it is important that using your harness not be a pain. One idea is to run your jacklines from the mast back to the cockpit exit. That way you can clip in when leaving the cockpit and reach the mast. You are less likely to go over the lifeline if your jackline is near the center (and tight). With a double tether you can go up to the forestay by hooking onto the mast or maybe another jackline from the mast to the bow.

Other people prefer to reverse the normal jackline/ double tether. Instead they leave several tethers around the boat arranged so they can always reach the next tether before disconnecting the previous. This way they always have a tether of the exact appropriate length and don't have an extra tether dangling from their harness.

[donradcliffe]

I agree with the OP that tethers and crotch straps can get tangled up, and it is better to not use them on fully crewed race boat where time is of the essence. OTOH, on deliveries, my rules are that using life vests and tethers are up to the crew, but if I decide conditions warrant wearing mine, you will wear yours.

In the cold waters of Northern California, the race rules require a life preserver to be worn on deck while racing. Not so in Southern California, but this weekend I did the 140 mile Islands Race, where on our boat the harnesses and tethers were passed out at sunset. They were equipped with the latest AIS beacons, but I would say that after dark when the boat is doing over 10 knots, if you go over unharnessed you will likely die. The boat's rules were influenced by a Chicago-Mac race where a crew on a nearby boat went over in broad daylight in 20 knots of wind and they spent hours searching for him without success.

[JPK]

In 2012 there was a tragic accident in the Full Crew Farallones Race where 5 crew died. The incident report that US Sailing published after their analysis of the accident really paints a pretty clear picture on usage of safety gear.

https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content...port-FINAL.pdf

There were a lot of contributing factors as to why the accident happened, and there is a lot of good discussion on the use (or lack thereof) of appropriate flotation devices and tethers, but with regard to the casualties US Sailing summarized as follows:

"In summary, there are four things which might have helped the survival rate: staying with the boat, higher buoyancy life jackets, water-activated inflation, and thigh straps. These changes could have improved the survival chances of those who died."

Of the seven crew aboard the Low Speed Chase, all that stayed aboard the boat survived. It can't be overstated how important staying on the boat is. This accident report is largely responsible for my awareness of how important crotch straps are on inflatable PFD's, which was reinforced by my own testing.