Computer for navigation

[anotherT34C]

I have a 32” LCD tv mounted on a swing out arm in the nav station. I plug my iphone with navionics into the hdmi. With it, use a Bluetooth mouse and external Bluetooth gps and ais. Also swings out to function as the saloon tv. Have a collection of past iPhones in the desk. Cockpit has an old iPad in a waterproof box for primary nav. An older garmin something or another GPSmap is there as backup.

Alienware laptop, but that’s for gaming, not for nav.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by coopec43

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Thank you both for your advice

I worry about taking a laptop (designed for home use) aboard a boat. The local technician in a fishing village where I live says the lobster fishermen have problems with corrosion.

The computers I looked at have been especially designed for rugged used for the military, industry, geologists(?) etc. Certainly they are expensive new at around $3500 and that is why I'm thinking of buying a "pre-owned" unit at $299. The ones I was told to look at are:

• Dell Latitude 14 Rugged Extreme. The very best rugged laptop. ...
• Dell Latitude 14 Rugged. A fantastic rugged laptop from Dell. ...
• Panasonic Toughbook CF-33. Rugged 2-in-1 laptop. ...
• HP ProBook x360 11 G1 EE Notebook PC. A sturdy laptop. ...
• Lenovo ThinkPad 11e. Rugged performance.

They don't claim the Panasonic is waterproof but it can handle very harsh conditions.


"If you want a fully-rugged, lightweight, wireless laptop that converts from a powerful notebook PC to a convenient tablet PC with one quick swivel, then the Toughbook® 19 is for you. The fi rst tablet PC to be certifi ed1 for MIL-STD-810G and IP65, it features a full magnesium alloy case capable of withstanding a 6-foot drop1 —ideal for working in challenging environments and mission-critical situations. At only fi ve pounds, it’s good on the go with a hand strap, Wi-Fi, a brilliant LED screen capable of up to 6500 nit in direct sunlight, and optional integrated LTE mobile broadband."

I have also been considering a NUC which at $350 would be brand new but then I would need a touch screen and they are not cheap.

Some comments:



1. First of all, you don't need a touch screen. OpenCPN works perfectly well without it. Use a trackball. You can fix a trackball to your nav table. You will also need a bluetooth or RF keyboard because OpenCPN needs some keyboard inputs. A mini one intended for use with smart tv's is ok and doesn't take up much space.



2. I think you are right to be thinking about EITHER a toughened laptop OR a built-in minicomputer like a NUC. A normal tablet or laptop is too fragile for this use, at least if the device is supposed to be a big part of your tool kit. I have used both, but prefer a built-in minicomputer which is mounted in my electronics bay so protected from any splashes or shocks. This takes up no space on the nav table and can't fly off the nav table in rough weather. Paired with a fixed mounted screen.



3. I would avoid old operating systems or processors. OpenCPN likes to have some power especially if you have a lot of charts and/or are using raster charts. I would not mess with used or even non-current generation hardware, which uses more electrical power and gives less computing power.



4. For a minicomputer, much cheaper and lower power consumption than NUC are ones like the Beelink ones with the 4-core Goldmont Plus processors like Pentium Silver. This is similar in power to Core processors of a generation or two ago but with a fraction of the power consumption. You will care about power consumption if you are using the machine continuously; older Core processors use up to 50 watts of power. Another benefit of these new super low power consumption processors is that they don't need fans, so no noise, and no drawing potentially corrosive sea air through the machine all the time.



5. Windows 10 has its kinks but is reasonably usable with OpenCPN. My minicomputer came with Win 10 installed and I planned to change to Linux but haven't bothered so far as it works ok the way it is. If you don't want Win 10, then I would for sure do only Linux. Win 7 is no longer supported and it was crap anyway -- I'm amazed how fast people forget. For a real dedicated nav computer I don't think you can beat the power and stability of Linux PROVIDED you have the time, patience and knowledge to get it set up right.



6. This setup (laptop or minicomputer running OpenCPN) is not readily usable at the helm and is not really good for pilotage but it's great for passage planning and navigation, at the nav table. For the helm, you want a standard hard wired marine MFD/chart plotter, even if it's a cheap one. These are rugged, really daylight visible, totally waterproof, and give you a better view for pilotage. This complements the nav computer nicely. Downside is you have to buy separate cartography for the plotter, but that is at the same time an upside -- you will have two different chart sources you can compare with each other -- that is good navigation practice.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Capt.Don

Decided Windows 10 is evil [...] Windows 8.1 with Classic Shell (now Open Shell) menu makes Windows 8.1 usable.

Indeed. I still use the last stable release of Classic Shell on my Windows 10 Dell Inspiron to make it work like Windows 7. (And also on my Windows 10 desktop.) If you didn't know better - you'd swear I was running Windows 7 on both.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

Indeed. I still use the last stable release of Classic Shell on my Windows 10 Dell Inspiron to make it work like Windows 7. (And also on my Windows 10 desktop.) If you didn't know better - you'd swear I was running Windows 7 on both.

The Panasonic Toughbook which I may buy has Windows 7 installed. Are you saying I should use Win 7 and not update to Win 10?.


I also have Linux on a USB Stick which could be the way I go.

[Capt.Don]

Originally Posted by coopec43

The Panasonic Toughbook which I may buy has Windows 7 installed. Are you saying I should use Win 7 and not update to Win 10?.


I also have Linux on a USB Stick which could be the way I go.

I went to Windows 8.1 with Open Shell. As previously mentioned, Windows 7 is no longer supported.

My problem with Windows 10 is Microsoft's forced updates. Once connected to the sat-phone, Windows thinks it has a network connection and begins to download updates. Now, you can delay the updates, but it is still a problem when at slow(er) hotspots, etc. It seems like all the software vendors assume high-speed internet.

Linux is also an option, though RMS Express and qtvlm (which I use) don't have Linux versions. I didn't want to run a Windows emulator, etc.

Because of Windows 10 constant forced updates and other software I use, I decided Windows 8.1. Works fine.

Don

[requiem]

That's why I went Apple; I wanted a *nix style system but had grown tired of spending too much time getting things just right/functional on linux.

Regarding the auto-updates in Windows 10, setting the network connection to "metered" should disable* that feature.

I have two thoughts on auto-updates; on the one hand many people are terrible about keeping systems patched and updated, so this is good in the aggregate. On the other hand, there are cases where updates need to be tested in-house before being applied. (But then, is Windows really the best choice there?)

*MS says that there is an exception for extremely critical security patches.

[Bill O]

While you are still in the planning/building stage for your boat, wouldn't over think what computer you'll need for navigation.

Your boat most likely will have a below deck dedicated nav. station that is generally protected from the outside environment. This computer should be a dedicated nav. computer only and really doesn't need to more than a raspberry pi. We've been running a rpi 3B for a while and it handles all of the sensor inputs, AIS, etc.. Its low power draw is great (can leave it on 24/7) and has plenty of speed & memory (32gb) card to store many charts. We will be switching our rpi soon to the newer 4B+ which as better graphics capability to handle opengl and a radar input. Do like the NUC, but think it is way overkill (= higher power draw) for what is needed as a computer for the nav. station.
The computer screen at the nav. station will be your next selection. We went w/a higher resolution 21" standard screen. We didn't feel we needed the touch screen here, but wanted the higher res. instead. Similar to the NUC, the higher res. screens draw more power and we tend to have it in stand-by mode (or turned off) unless we are sitting there using that computer. From a recent CF thread, these 12V screens were suggested and thought they were fairly good at a low price point. Here's a link on how we set up out nav. computer.

For use in the cockpit, we use a cheap 11" touch screen tablet (W10 based;~$100 at walmart) which is wirelessly connected to both the nav. station and AP. We've had it in our well protected cockpit for at least 5 years and is still working fine. Whichever tablet/laptop you get, try to get one w/good battery time between charging. (we have a 5V charge cord in the cockpit when we need to do a recharge at 8-10 hr. intervals). While a rugged/tough laptop may be better for some, we didn't feel it was worth the extreme pricing for our well protected cockpit. Also technology is changing rapidly, so the cheap tablet can be switched out to keep up w/the times. The W10 based tablet is a bit of a pain w/the updates, but can mostly be turned off/minimized (unless they are critical).

With our set up, one can independently look around at different chart views, AIS or other info in the nav. station or in the cockpit without compromising either computer. Similarly, the AP can be independently controlled by either station.
Since you are building your boat and will need an AP, look at the pypilot (that comes embedded in OPlotter). These work well w/a rpi zero w and completes the suite w/o breaking the bank. Ours was the prototype for the pypilot below deck hydraulic controller and again is still working great.

[svspirited]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Thank you for that.

I think I'll replace the 500GB HDD with a 240GB SSD immediately

I thought of loading Linux and using that with CPN but I have an inkling Windows may handle a touch screen better than Linux (I'm sure I read that somewhere). I'll stay with Win7 in the short term but maybe it is a concern that Microsoft are not going to support it anymore?

I use Linux with OCPN on a Dell XPS 13 with the touch screen and it works great. That one stays at the nav station and I am playing around with an older Surface Pro with OCPN for the healm, running Windows only because the last time I tried loading Linux on the tablet it did not go so well. I have a Garmin unit their now but it is such a major power hog and so horribly slow, and the charts are horribly expensive.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by coopec43

The Panasonic Toughbook which I may buy has Windows 7 installed. Are you saying I should use Win 7 and not update to Win 10?.


I also have Linux on a USB Stick which could be the way I go.

No, I just personally don't like Windows 8 or 10. If you are comfortable using them, then by all means do. But if you like Windows 7, and you're not planning on using the notebook for anything risky security-wise, then there's no reason not to use Windows 7 (for now, anyway).


Microsoft discontinuing support just means that 7 will no longer be updated. It will still work as an OS - it just won't get security updates and won't be guaranteed to run newer programs or programs that are continually being updated.


One other consideration is hardware support. Things like RAM limits change with each new release of Windows. This is less of a concern with laptops (which are inherently less flexible when it comes to upgrading vs. desktops), but as long as the machine does what you need it to do then I see no need to change anything.


Heck, if the programs you want to run will work on Windows XP you could even use that ... or an even earlier version. I just wouldn't do any web surfing with the machine.


Personally, I have run into the opposite problem. There are some programs which I want to run (mostly for nostalgia's sake) that only work on DOS. I've had to get a DOS emulator to make them work again. But then, that's just it - you can usually find a way to make things backward compatible ... but good luck making a program that was written in 2020 work on a machine running something like XP.


In summary: because I like 7 more than 8 or 10 - but I still want to be able to connect to the internet safely and run newer programs - running 10 with Classic Shell making it look like 7 is the best option for me. You have to decide what is the best option for you.


Cheers!

[mvweebles]

I'm a bit perplexed by this thread. If the OP is planning on cruising any distance, a stable nav platform is needed. Tough to beat an MFD for stability, but so be it.

But what gets me is the number of people recommending Win 7. It was junk when it came out. Win 10 is designed for touch screens but it needs a lot of RAM - I believe MS states 4GB but really 16GB.

When cruising, I do a lot of overnight passages. I like to sleep in my off watch. If I'm running a PC with OpenCPN as my system of record, I will get awakened anytime there is a change because it's much more complicated to learn.

A basic Simrad (B&G) MFD system with radar and simple depth transducer can be had for around $5k. What problem is being solved by a near obsolete laptop running Win 7?

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

No, I just personally don't like Windows 8 or 10. If you are comfortable using them, then by all means do. But if you like Windows 7, and you're not planning on using the notebook for anything risky security-wise, then there's no reason not to use Windows 7 (for now, anyway).


Microsoft discontinuing support just means that 7 will no longer be updated. It will still work as an OS - it just won't get security updates and won't be guaranteed to run newer programs or programs that are continually being updated.


One other consideration is hardware support. Things like RAM limits change with each new release of Windows. This is less of a concern with laptops (which are inherently less flexible when it comes to upgrading vs. desktops), but as long as the machine does what you need it to do then I see no need to change anything.


Heck, if the programs you want to run will work on Windows XP you could even use that ... or an even earlier version. I just wouldn't do any web surfing with the machine.


Personally, I have run into the opposite problem. There are some programs which I want to run (mostly for nostalgia's sake) that only work on DOS. I've had to get a DOS emulator to make them work again. But then, that's just it - you can usually find a way to make things backward compatible ... but good luck making a program that was written in 2020 work on a machine running something like XP.


In summary: because I like 7 more than 8 or 10 - but I still want to be able to connect to the internet safely and run newer programs - running 10 with Classic Shell making it look like 7 is the best option for me. You have to decide what is the best option for you.


Cheers!

I wondered why people were saying I shouldn't use Win 7 because it is no longer supported. So What? Then I found a lot of users (incl Industry) of the Panasonic Toughbook are removing Win 10 and loading Win 7!

I'll take your advice and use Win 7 which is already loaded in the Toughbook.

Of course this is just a start and no doubt I'll find I need other navigation resources as I go.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

But what gets me is the number of people recommending Win 7. It was junk when it came out. Win 10 is designed for touch screens but it needs a lot of RAM - I believe MS states 4GB but really 16GB.

Don't get me wrong: I haven't been happy with the direction in which Microsoft has been going for quite some time. And it's entirely possible that my experience has been skewed by the dumpster fire that was Vista. At the time, the introduction of Windows 7 - which actually worked (what a concept!) - was at least better than that. Bottom line: for my needs, Windows [unfortunately] ticks the most boxes ... for now.



I am not a fan of touch screens. Maybe it's because I'm "fat-fingered" or just too old - but I prefer a trackball, mouse, touchpad or anything other than a touch screen. Hell, I'd even take a trackpoint over a touch screen - and that's saying something.

Originally Posted by mvweebles

A basic Simrad (B&G) MFD system with radar and simple depth transducer can be had for around $5k. What problem is being solved by a near obsolete laptop running Win 7?

The same problem being solved by a newer machine running Windows 10/Linux/whatever. It just depends on the needs/preferences of the user. MFDs are great. But why argue against another option - especially when that option can be used in conjunction with an MFD and can also do a lot of other things? Horses for courses, IMHO.

[BenBowSirocco]

Tons of good advice here and you seem fairly decided, but just my 2 cents.

My wife and I have been using IPads for primary navigation for 5+ years (nearly 8,000 miles) without trouble on the same IPad. Above and below decks. It was $350 when we bought it and the spare was $50. Runs 3 nav programs (Navionionics/Garmin and Aquamap are lately our favorites) and multiple weather satellite programs and works with the Iridium GO and cell phone hotspots very well. We have found the most effective waterproof case is the bag type ($8-12), not the Otterbox of Lifeproof. For whatever reason, the bag type works great even when wet with just a wipe on the sleeve. We keep “Absorber” rags in the cockpit for general use and these work even better. You can also put a large battery in the bag with the IPad if you like, although I use a wireless charger in the cockpit.
We keep all sorts of backup option in case of accidents (5 devices+large chart)- but they are isolated form lightning, integrate AIS, radar and now even engine gauges if you wish and haven’t given us an issue yet. Must be kept out of the direct sun for long periods.

There is a huge thread discussing tablets VS MFD if you wish to hear every possible piece of the discussion. The laptop is far more versatile than an MFD in my experience, although they change every year. But your “out of date” laptop is still going to be updatable and versatile in 5 years, were as the $5,000 dollar MFD is phased out every 3 seemingly on purpose.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

Don't get me wrong: I haven't been happy with the direction in which Microsoft has been going for quite some time. And it's entirely possible that my experience has been skewed by the dumpster fire that was Vista. At the time, the introduction of Windows 7 - which actually worked (what a concept!) - was at least better than that. Bottom line: for my needs, Windows [unfortunately] ticks the most boxes ... for now.



I am not a fan of touch screens. Maybe it's because I'm "fat-fingered" or just too old - but I prefer a trackball, mouse, touchpad or anything other than a touch screen. Hell, I'd even take a trackpoint over a touch screen - and that's saying something.






The same problem being solved by a newer machine running Windows 10/Linux/whatever. It just depends on the needs/preferences of the user. MFDs are great. But why argue against another option - especially when that option can be used in conjunction with an MFD and can also do a lot of other things? Horses for courses, IMHO.

It won't be usable for much else for long. Just surprised there is advice to start with a PC that is out of support. When an MFD goes out of support, it just stops at whatever point it was last updated. With your iPad, you will hit a point where you will be unable to run programs. It will be a brick.

This is a religious topic. I've worked in silicon valley technology for 25 years and am comfortable with it but am wary of the limits. For navigation and instrumentation, I advocate purpose built hardware that is designed for intended usage. And software/ firmware to match.

[Pizzazz]

Best low power option, as stated above is a cheap Windows 10 touch tablet. It is very capable and low power and will run everything you need.

Second best option is a NUC with an external monitor.

Windows 7 is just obsolete right now and you will spend more time installing and configuring than actually using. There is a way to hard disable Windows 10 updates in the firewall at the click of a button.

SV Pizzazz