Big $$$ Chartplotter or Computer App(s)

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by shipchips

Good Day all,

Forgive me I didn't read all the posts just the initial question so this might be a repeat of what has been said.

I have been a merchant marine master for over 23 years and I use all forms of electronic nav and I am highly proficient in the use of a sextant as well. I have used iPad, Macs, PCs, Androids, etc and the bottom line is NONE of them have passed any type of test for accuracy or dependability. Case in point, I have a brand new iPad Pro that I use iSalor on, while entering the channel in Guyana South America a few weeks ago the iPad just stopped updating GPS so no Navi. This has happed several times and I am not the only one talking about the dependability or lack thereof ALL tablets and their GPSs. We have a bunch of antidotal information from YouTubers sailing all over the world with just an old Android phone, can it be done - well it has, would I do it if I had other options HELL NO!
As a professional, I consider all tablets and phones as just toys and nothing that can be depended on. As far as laptops go it will depend on the GPS antenna you purchase and how dry you can keep that laptop and its connections.

On my sailboat, I have two independent marine GPS, a marine plotter, a sextant, paper charts for the South Pacific (where the best marine e-nav is lacking), and other backups.
The iPads and iPhones are toys and only used as such.

My answer is more about tablets and phones but I think you can see my point.

Just the two cents of an old navigator, be safe and have redundancy!
Happy Cruising to all!!!
Jim

What this says 👍. I refuse to listen to fanboys and Instead go with my own years of experience in the commercial and recreational industry. Items built to do specific jobs in very specific environments obviously give the best results.

[EngineerRetired]

Originally Posted by thomm225

A remote PC? Really?

I guess if you already have an old one you aren't using but that thing will suck down some power.

You could use a $50-$99 Raspberry Pi computer for that. I use that with a GPS Puck ($15) and then download OpenCPN free charts and you have an instant chart Plotter.

I also feed in AIS and backup GPS data from my SH VHF radio using the NMEA 0183 through an RS 485 USB adapter so this is also displayed on the HDTV.

My display at this time is on a 19" HDTV.

https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspb...a-833869585324

https://www.adafruit.com/product/456...CABEgJyrPD_BwE

https://www.amazon.com/Navigation-Ex.../dp/B078Y52FGQ

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...2_adapter.html

Love the pi, have several for various uses. (Mostly video) However I want a single PC as a server for all the other toys and navigation as well as boat systems management. Have a ton of Windows apps (I've been an MS MVP since 95) I could never give up.



When I say a PC, it will not be the typical off the shelf machine. This will be purpose built to be energy efficient (48vdc supply), ssd storage, a CPU capable of doing video editing and rendering without hours of waiting, etc. Will also need to run a couple of Windows only CAD packages. All in all I'm estimating 75 to 100 watts depending on load.

[Hamish_ct]

I recently boat a new to me boat. No or very old electronics. Installed all new B&G equipment. Plug and play, great Customer service and the B&G Sail Steer is simply amazing. The price points have fallen dramatically. Installed a B&G Vulcan, Triton 2 displays, Wind sensor and Speed and depth transducers. They are trying to push the wireless version, I went with the wired after the reviews. You have to run the power cable anyway. Putting it together was a breeze. Just need to install the NMEA 2000 back bone to link it together. Very low power usage, can see in all conditions and the off the shelf options are amazing. The only issue is that the cables have a slightly large connector, difficult to run the wires at times, but not impossible. I have used the Phone apps, not reliable and difficult to see in bad conditions WHEN YOU NEED THEM.
Good luck, Fair winds.

[chasfgr]

I went to a laptop, using CPN charts and various charplotter software, which goes to and from the boat.

I've used that successfully, never having a laptop fail in the 31 years and 100,000 nm I've done in 2 boats.
Power is provided by a 12v solid-state transformer, plugged into the cigar-socket, charging when the engine is running, and on laptop power under sail.
Great for monitoring true speed and course over ground, and keeping the boat log.
I've used a long line of Lenovo laptops, latterly with SSD drive, but unfailing on an old HDD.
I usually have a back-up unit on board, total cost about 30% of the fixed interactive unit.
The interactive unit is great for big ships with lots of power, lookouts and dedicated systems, but a hole-in-the-head for a long-distance single-hander on a sailboat.

[alctel]

I had an 8" simard chart plotter that chugged on for 7 years until I sold my boat which got banged around and hit in the screen a lot with various elbows, net handles, winch handles and was regularly covered in fresh water, sea water, tea, blood (and sadly on one occasion) vomit. It was mounted outside that entire time at the helm (and I didn't have a dodger or bimini for 6 of those 7 years), and had the radar/AP/instruments integrated into it. I loved it and wouldn't see the need to get a larger screen. You can also get 'last gen' chartplotters pretty cheap second hand.

I DID have a toughbook with OpenCPN etc below decks as a backup however, but really only used it for route planning in my bunk. I also had a cheap android tablet that I mirrored the chartplotter onto using gofree.

tl;dr - why not both

[rreid01]

I run OpenCPN on my large screen laptop and use it for all my route planning. I then upload the completed routes to the Chartplotter at my helm station. The laptop with a gps puck acts as the backup to my Chartplotter for navigation. The laptop is also my entertainment center at anchor. I run AquaMap on an iPad to locate and research shore services. It is plenty robust to also be a fallback navigation tool.

This approach has worked quite well for me.

[capt04530]

Originally Posted by EngineerRetired

Looking at the buying a used blow boat and the electronics need to be replaced. As I am looking at the instruments and plotter costs I seriously ask if good software can take care of it. (Some reviews say yes, some not so sure.)


I look backward (perfect hindsight) at the money I spent on Garmin GPS devices over the years and today, my smart phone does a better job than any of the Garmin devices ever did.


Integrating all navigation and boat monitoring systems on to a single large screen sure does have its appeal. Having every thing connected to my smart phone wirelessly is also a huge attraction. I can easily (cheaply) buy an extra computer and monitor and put it away as a back up in case of damage or malfunction.


So, other than, "its always been done the old way and it might fail", what solid reasons are there for not going this route?

I ran a 100' motor yacht this past year on an IPAD with Navionics. But for RADAR, I woul look for a good RADAR package.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by shipchips

Good Day all,


On my sailboat, I have two independent marine GPS, a marine plotter, a sextant, paper charts for the South Pacific (where the best marine e-nav is lacking), and other backups.
The iPads and iPhones are toys and only used as such.
Jim

Paper Charts!!! Tell me it's not true!!! According to the "experts" here, paper charts are a thing of the past.

As far as a sextant, I sailed down to Mexico with a friend from this forum. He was a career Naval Intelligence. It was a long boring, uneventful trip. He taught me how to navigate using a sextant. It was a lot of fun.

[EngineerRetired]

Originally Posted by Hamish_ct

I recently boat a new to me boat. No or very old electronics. Installed all new B&G equipment. Plug and play, great Customer service and the B&G Sail Steer is simply amazing. The price points have fallen dramatically.

Define that please? What was the total out of pocket?

[EngineerRetired]

Originally Posted by shipchips

Good Day all,

Forgive me I didn't read all the posts just the initial question so this might be a repeat of what has been said.

I have been a merchant marine master for over 23 years and I use all forms of electronic nav and I am highly proficient in the use of a sextant as well. I have used iPad, Macs, PCs, Androids, etc and the bottom line is NONE of them have passed any type of test for accuracy or dependability. Case in point, I have a brand new iPad Pro that I use iSalor on, while entering the channel in Guyana South America a few weeks ago the iPad just stopped updating GPS so no Navi. This has happed several times and I am not the only one talking about the dependability or lack thereof ALL tablets and their GPSs. We have a bunch of antidotal information from YouTubers sailing all over the world with just an old Android phone, can it be done - well it has, would I do it if I had other options HELL NO!
As a professional, I consider all tablets and phones as just toys and nothing that can be depended on. As far as laptops go it will depend on the GPS antenna you purchase and how dry you can keep that laptop and its connections.

On my sailboat, I have two independent marine GPS, a marine plotter, a sextant, paper charts for the South Pacific (where the best marine e-nav is lacking), and other backups.
The iPads and iPhones are toys and only used as such.

My answer is more about tablets and phones but I think you can see my point.

Just the two cents of an old navigator, be safe and have redundancy!
Happy Cruising to all!!!
Jim

I have been an engineer for over four decades and when I started I did all my calculations on paper and with a slide rule. 20 years ago I spent lots of money on Garmin GPS systems along with maps for Canada and Mexico. Things change, tech gets BETTER and CHEAPER. I suspect that if the cheap tech isn't 100% on par right now, it soon will be.


But, and I mean this, I do appreciate your input. Always listen to as many knowledgeable people as I can.

[Hamish_ct]

For the Vulcan, 9 " 2 Triton screens, Wind sensor and Speed & Depth, plus the back bone kit, under $3k.

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by Moontide

As and FYI, OpenCPN is written by sailors and cruisers, and apparently many have a fair amount of time because they keep it current and enhance it regularly. It will also run on a Rasberry Pi computer which I understand you can build or buy for almost nothing. And the support is superb.

I just did an electronics refit on my new (to me) sailboat. Installed a B&G Zeus 3 chart plotter. However, sitting right next to it I’d. Raspberry Pi 4b running a combination of OpenCPN and a bunch of custom software for racing and instrumentation displays scattered throughout the boat.

At the helm is a single iPad running one of:

Navionics
Repeater for the B&G
Repeater for the Raspberry Pi

With all the NMEA data available on the wireless network, there’s little I can’t do from the helm. The big advantage is no expensive electronics exposed to the elements, other than the iPad which is in an IP67 (I think 67. Might be something slightly smaller case. I have a waterproof USB outlet at the helm to keep the iPad charged (no data, just power).

The big advantage is that I can shut down the B&G chart plotter and run the raspberry Pi from a cell phone recharger bank for just over 24 hours, conserving electricity for important things like my wife’s hair dryer (when not racing).

When in Cruising mode and at anchor, a change of a single data card and the raspberry Pi becomes an entertainment Center complete with hard drive of movies and tv shows. It also handles boat security when I’m away, not to mention games to keep guests entertained, work on my writing, do spreadsheets, and all that stuff.

Yeah, I’m a big proponent of raspberry pis!!

All this at a cost of about $250.00 for the raspberry Pi and the touch screen and NMEA2K interface for it. I already had the iPad, so not figuring that into the cost.

I could have gotten away without the interface, but that requires leaving the B&G chart plotter running to act as the wireless gateway.

[mcon12000]

I’m replying without having read the entire thread..

We started full time cruising a year ago and like many others an iPad with an external GPS (Garmin Glo improved accuracy but a topic for another thread) was our choice. It’s served us well but it’s being retired for a Raymarine Axiom.

What we found is the integration of all of our systems into one networked display is both easier and safer. A great example is AIS and yeah I know you can get a Digital Yacht black box that allows Navionics to display targets and for a few extra bucks transmit your data but it’s clumsy when I compared to any of the offerings from B&G, Garmin or Raymarine.

The iPad was/is great but there are some negatives. For example I had to add power at the helm and with the display at any setting above 75% the battery slowly drains regardless of the power source. I mean the newest high amp wall charger can keep up by I’m not putting an AC outlet in the cockpit lol.. The charging problem is exaggerated by the fact that It’s real tough to use in bright sunshine even on the brightest setting plus water can also be an issue but only in extreme situations. Back to the power order a battery pack on Amazon (the type you carry in your backpack for recharging the phone) and plug the iPad into it at the helm this will save you the time and money it takes to properly install a USB outlet in the cockpit. Bring both in at night, charge them and you’re ready for another days travels.

It’s not that you have to decide to go one way or the other to start enjoying the journey. It’s a huge chunk of change to by a “complete” networked system but I think you end up there in the first year of cruising. For us it was replacing our old autopilot with the newest Raymarine offering. After I installed that and realized how easy and clean a whole system was going to be I was sold.

[loneshark64]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I chose a Raymarine chart plotter/AIS/Radar at the helm so thats my vote. Depends how familiar you are with fiddling around with computers I guess - I started using them in business in the very early 80s & always had a man to set them up/fix them up. I like the dedicated, relatively easy to use chartplotter - but I also have paper charts & 3 other GPS sets - plus the phone & iPad. You also must be able to dim your viewscreen right down at night - whatever you use.

Same with me. I fooled around with OpenCPN and tablets and a laptop enough to know it worked, but I ultimately went with Raymarine. I found the downloading and updating of OPenCPN maps and gribs to be annoying and a pain. The tablet was not bright enough, difficult to use at the helm, and not weather proof.

A Raymarine Axiom 7 with lighthouse charts is around $750. How much are you really saving with an iPad? Not much. The Axiom is designed form this task and works great at the helm.

I bought a Raymarine quantum radar for under $2k and I can view that on the axiom, which I could not do on my iPad. It was plug and play.

I also have navionics on my phone as a backup and I like their auto routing and active captain better than the Axiom for planning. But I don’t do planning at the helm. The helm and the planning are different functions.

[CyKlop]

Originally Posted by shipchips

Good Day all,

Forgive me I didn't read all the posts just the initial question so this might be a repeat of what has been said.

I have been a merchant marine master for over 23 years and I use all forms of electronic nav and I am highly proficient in the use of a sextant as well. I have used iPad, Macs, PCs, Androids, etc and the bottom line is NONE of them have passed any type of test for accuracy or dependability. Case in point, I have a brand new iPad Pro that I use iSalor on, while entering the channel in Guyana South America a few weeks ago the iPad just stopped updating GPS so no Navi. This has happed several times and I am not the only one talking about the dependability or lack thereof ALL tablets and their GPSs. We have a bunch of antidotal information from YouTubers sailing all over the world with just an old Android phone, can it be done - well it has, would I do it if I had other options HELL NO!
As a professional, I consider all tablets and phones as just toys and nothing that can be depended on

Hi Jim,

USCG 100 ton master here, and celestial nav instructor (just mentioning those to give some credence to the following…)

ALL forms of navigation have failures and inaccuracies. Your sextant and paper charts depend on an accurate time signal as well as optics and vernier in proper calibration. Even then, what’s your accuracy and how well does that work when navigating an unfamiliar channel? Oh you don’t use celestial for that channel (no intelligent skipper does just pointing out a failure mode).

In the channel you use sight bearings and dead reckoning,(as well as careful preplanning when warranted) of course, but that doesn’t work well in the ocean and there’s always the chance of sighting on the wrong landmark - or if it’s foggy. Okay, in fog you use radar to navigate. How well calibrated is that radar? I mean, it’s electronic and subject to many of the same failure possibilities as other marine electronics.

Where I feel you do have a certain amount of accuracy though is in that iPads and phones aren’t designed to resist the marine environment and are therefore more likely to fail. That’s why I have more than one on board. My cell phone backs up my iPad. If my cell phone dies, I borrow a crew members, or my wife’s. If that fails, I borrow another one. If I run out of phones to borrow, we’ll, then I have charts aboard and go back to the older ways of navigating (which I often do anyway simply because I enjoy it and it keeps my skills up).

BUT, it’s also important to remember that you and I are doing this stuff nearly every day and have sought out advanced training and certification beyond what many boaters do. Our skills are arguably better and fresher. I prefer most boaters be taught how to properly use a chartplotter (hint, don’t just blindly follow its directions folks!

But just as sextant are mere toys in the hands of people and usable navigation instruments to others, the same can be said of iPads, Cell Phones, and other electronics.