"Best" chart/navigation software

[JPK]

Originally Posted by nohal

The documentation is community maintained, it is not reasonably possible for me or any other developers, who all develop OpenCPN for free, to keep buying new hardware as it becomes available and test compatibility of new versions of operating systems. Unfortunately with Apple Silicon and recent versions of macOS the situation on this platform got even worse than the bad it already was and it will take the Internet time to reflect it. If there is anybody to be asked for an up to date list of compatible peripherals, it unfortunately is Apple, who don't give a damn about it.

We are of course interested in feedback from important userbase like you describe and they are welcome to get in touch either in the support forum or the issue tracker and developer discussion on Github, the user input is the principal thing that drives OpenCPN development, but that input has to be provided to be taken into account and we simply can't be everywhere...

Thank you again Pavel for the reply.

I feel that this thread has deviated pretty far off track from what I intended when I started it, though it has validated my perception that OpenCPN is not the user experience that I'm looking for. Thanks to those who have recommended a few other tools for me to look into.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by nohal

1. OpenCPN is not limited to a single type and source of charts, charts freely available are downloadable directly, stored and configured for you from the application. Can you please be more specific in what on the process sucks exactly? Of course obtaining a managing charts externally involves some work, can you try to describe a process that would not while achieving the same result in your opinion? How does Coastal Explorer make using the charts from other independent sources not being known to Rosepoint easier?

2. Plugins extend the functionality of the program with additional features you might or might not want or use and are developed by independent 3rd parties, they are installed directly from the application, there is no need to look for them anywhere else and they are not required unless you want to use what they provide. What in your opinion would make this easier and can I find the same extensibility in Coastal Explorer done better?

3. I do not understand this point, the process of chart installation is exactly the same on Android. What would you expect to be happening? Having the configuration synchronized between your computer and the Android device? Or something different?

4. OpenCPN is not limited to a single gateway device with fixed behavior, which requires you to set up the protocol it uses, address and port. That is all. OpenCPN also supports NMEA2000 directly now. How exactly does Coastal Explorer make connection to gateways from other independent vendors easier to configure?

I concur that OpenCPN lacks a decent manual for first time users and that the broad options available in combination with being agnostic to which one the user selects pose an introductory hurdle, that is a fact.

With all due respect, you know the software too well. You cannot fathom what many users experience because your knowledge is advanced. Folks like yourself have worked hard to provide optionality and flexibility into the software and simply cannot understand the frustration that creates.

The OP hints that the steep learning curve is accepted by many because the software is free. Consider what would happen if OpenCapan were $400 similar to a nav suite such as Coastal Explorer. Only a guess of course, but my hunch is the number of users who asked for their money back would be staggering. What's a good value for free would be a lousy value if it were priced at a market rate.

[nohal]

With all due respect, that is why we ask for your constructive input. Your response was to buy a camera. Now it is I know the software too well and if it was a commercial package the users would ask their money back in your opinion. I am sorry, but this really has no chance to improve the situation, I am sure that you can do better in describing what actually are the problems.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

We use TimeZero on a Windows laptop. Works great, even our old version.

Happened into it, because it's completely compatible (near mirror) with the first Furuno MFD we installed on our previous boat circa 2009-ish... and I wanted something to use for planning and back-up.

NOAA charts for free (including annual updates), C-Map charts optional for purchase.

Easy to get started. Install. Use. That's pretty much it.

Originally Posted by JPK

So what am I looking for? Something that "just works" in the places I plan to sail, has good vector (and ideally raster) charts for those areas, can navigate in deg. true and magnetic, and can run on an iPad and ideally also on a Mac. There's probably more that I want, but those are the top level bullet points.

NOAA charts for TimeZero (and Furuno's TZT MFDs) are both raster and vector. Presumably as long as NOAA continues publication of raster charts.

-Chris

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Don C L

You don't need a GPS receiver if the iPad or iPhone have it, which all the recent ones do

Unfortunately this is only the case for the iPhone; the iPads still require purchase of the cellular-capable model as the GPS hardware is on the cellular hardware.

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Presumably as long as NOAA continues publication of raster charts.

The retirement of those charts is already well under-way. By the end of this July the remainder of the more detailed charts for SF Bay will have been retired.

[JPK]

Originally Posted by nohal

With all due respect, that is why we ask for your constructive input. Your response was to buy a camera. Now it is I know the software too well and if it was a commercial package the users would ask their money back in your opinion. I am sorry, but this really has no chance to improve the situation, I am sure that you can do better in describing what actually are the problems.

One problem, as already pointed out by others besides me, is that OpenCPN is very difficult for new users to learn due in large part to the poorly maintained documentation. I understand that you don't see this as your responsibility, as it is community-maintained. As a new user I will tell you that this is a wholly unsatisfying reply. I don't care who maintains the documentation as long as it's maintained, and lack of proper documentation is a major reason why OpenCPN is perceived as being unintuitive. I don't know how the developer community is led and organized, but if there is any sort of interest among your developer community to make OpenCPN a more accessible program, then the issue of proper documentation needs to be addressed. No amount of fiddling with screen layouts and features will make the software easier to learn and use.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Particularly on a phone, the options dialog doesn't fit. So it sometimes requires switching back and forth between portrait and landscape and scrolling the screen to see everything. Buttons on the right side of the dialog are not visible, and if you didn't know they were there and to scroll, you would be very confused. (IIRC, the button to add chart sources is hidden) On android, there is an additional android specific menu that is correctly formatted, but not all options are in that dialog so you need to revert to the poorly formatted dialog.

I recommend android users install on a PC first, learn the process, then once they know what to do, it is easier to navigate and find everything on the Android. Maybe even go as far as open the dialog on both at the same time.

I agree with both above points. (And I'm a happy PC and Android OpenCPN user....)

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by requiem

The retirement of those charts is already well under-way. By the end of this July the remainder of the more detailed charts for SF Bay will have been retired.

AND retirement of raster charts is also well under way here in Canada

Furuno TZT3 chart options for Canada essentially come down to C-MAP, as the "HO" option in Canada is CHS raster, which is increasingly missing charts.

[Timezero PC software chart options are different/better than those for Furuno TZT3 device options, at least here in Canada... as I'm learning as I setup my new TZT3]

[requiem]

Pavel, your comment has inspired me to drop a post into the support forum. (Planned for this weekend if all goes well.)

From a technical perspective the capabilities are all there, so it's more a question of design. For a brief example, consider the function to add an external connection:



The "Add Connection" button is in a separate group box from the Serial / Network radio buttons. I would expect it to open a "New Connection" dialog, but it doesn't. Instead it unhides a number of options in a different group box. Why were they hidden in the first place?

Until that's pressed, the radio buttons are also sitting alone in an open space, with no hints as to their purpose. Selecting one also unhides the remainder of the options, as shown here:



So, after filling in the details, what should the user do? Typically on a new dialog there'd be Save and Cancel buttons. Does the User hit "OK", closing the window and leaving them to navigate back to it, not knowing if a new connection was created or not? Or should do they instead hit "Add Connection"? It's unclear if hitting that would wipe out their input (thus allowing for new connection details to be input), or if it would now act as a save button.

(Yes, I've played with the options and know how it functions; this is just design commentary.)

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by nohal

3. I do not understand this point, the process of chart installation is exactly the same on Android.

.

This is not really true, especially if you do chart installation on Android without a PC.



HOWEVER, the "chart migration" function has definitely made the procedure easier for those without PC connection or FileManager app that accesses all folders.



Still, requires some understanding of how Android file access and restrictions work.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by nohal

....... I am sorry, but this really has no chance to improve the situation, I am sure that you can do better in describing what actually are the problems.

Maybe when I figure it out I'll be able to explain it to you better. Of course. I won't need help anymore so I'd have to remember to do so.

I use OpenCPN when I have to - when there are charts that I need that won't run on something else. But it's a PITA to use. Reminds me of the old DOS days on PC. Ton of file management.

I realize you're looking for suggestione that are super nerdy such as some sort of new feature. But that's the problem - that's how OpenCPN became a nerdy product in the first place. A bunch of features, many esoteric that make it difficult to find what is really useful.

But if you're really interested in how to make the software approachable (which I really doubt), find a novice user with some experience with chartplotters in general but has never used OpenCPN. Peer over their shoulder as they open it to a global chart that has less detail than a 3-year olds doodle. Then watch as they try to figure out how to load a chart......duck when they finally give up and huck the PC at you in frustration.

[nohal]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Maybe when I figure it out I'll be able to explain it to you better. Of course. I won't need help anymore so I'd have to remember to do so.

I use OpenCPN when I have to - when there are charts that I need that won't run on something else. But it's a PITA to use. Reminds me of the old DOS days on PC. Ton of file management.

I realize you're looking for suggestione that are super nerdy such as some sort of new feature. But that's the problem - that's how OpenCPN became a nerdy product in the first place. A bunch of features, many esoteric that make it difficult to find what is really useful.

But if you're really interested in how to make the software approachable (which I really doubt), find a novice user with some experience with chartplotters in general but has never used OpenCPN. Peer over their shoulder as they open it to a global chart that has less detail than a 3-year olds doodle. Then watch as they try to figure out how to load a chart......duck when they finally give up and huck the PC at you in frustration.

I am not looking for supper nerdy suggestions for new features, there is enough of them for years of development.
I am looking for input from user like you, describing what can be made easier and what features you consider basic, yet difficult to use in their present form.
I am out of novice users you talk about, they are simply not available here, that is why I'm asking you.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by requiem

Unfortunately this is only the case for the iPhone; the iPads still require purchase of the cellular-capable model as the GPS hardware is on the cellular .

Yes, true, I thought I edited that but clearly I didn’t.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by nohal

I am not looking for supper nerdy suggestions for new features, there is enough of them for years of development.
I am looking for input from user like you, describing what can be made easier and what features you consider basic, yet difficult to use in their present form.
I am out of novice users you talk about, they are simply not available here, that is why I'm asking you.

Someone up thread mentioned a wizard. I struggled to get the first chart installed. Recently, someone showed me a file of base charts that provide much better definition than the giant yellow land blobs. I wish I could explain more but I forgot what they were and how I saved them, but certainly made the base view usable. Opening OpenCPN on my android and seeing the land blobs and realizing I needed to relearn the crazy file structure was a non-starter for me so I just said f-it. I'll stick with iNavx which easily accepts my o-chsrts without a fuss

Early on, I struggled with concept that charts needed to be stored in layers or groups. I'd have a couple dozen charts available (including pilot charts) all shown along the lower edge of the chart. I had no idea how to manage these.

I struggled with creating sensible file folders. Other chatting programs manage files behind the scenes as you zoom in/out. My guess is that because OpenCPN can accept so many different formats, the charts need some sort of segregation. It took me a long time to figure out how to do this sensibly, and even now I doubt I've got it even close to right. Seems to require a lot of administration, this the snarky comment about DOS-level interactions.

Plug ins are various levels of maturity. Maybe there's a better one, but for weather or routing, having to do some sort of 1995-ish sailmail fetch and file store sure seems clunky.

Just feels like OpenCPN is the playground for nerdy upgrades vs development of a more user friendly chart program. That's fine - nothing wrong with being nerdy. Frankly, the level of investment to learn it is not beyond me, I just resent the constant drone of "it's the best!" OpenCPN could be the best but right now it's not. It's free. The OP more or less said the reason for it's popularity is it's free and I agree. If it were priced at market rates, it would be a miserable failure because of the awful UI. Frankly, if OpenCPN did all it purports to do and was easy to use, i'd gladly pay $400 for the software plus reasonable upgrade fees. I was fine paying $100 for detailed vector o-chsrts for Central America, and another $35 for the Shawn and Heather Breeding harbor charts for Pacific Mexico, plus $5 for their waypoints (which easily imported to my Simrad chartplotter and Coastal Explorer). Money isn't the issue, though I think keeping OpenCPN free means it's a novelty science project for bored developers. Decent charting software is very handy and $400 isn't prohibitive in the big scheme of cruising.

[hpeer]

Well for starters I can NOT sign onto the Dave Register help site. It will not accept my password. I have made several attempts. Gotten a new password etc. if I make 2 failed attempts I am blocked for something like 72 hours.

Last November a couple of guys here tried to help me with some loading problems. OpenCPN was behaving differently in 2 identical Androids. But in the attempt they found THEY had problems with their installations. Never did get my old charts to load, so just settled for the new charts I needed anyway.

Last week went to use OpenCPN and none of the oCharts I used in November would load. Piss. Walk away. Then a couple of days ago I had some time so decided to screw with it again AND after various attempts the Ocharts AND SOME OF my old charts appeared.

Do I really need a chart plotter that is that unstable?

I easily put 40 hours into this since October.