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Old 08-10-2009, 06:50   #106
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Testing the Raya or similar anchor

If it seems that it is difficult to obtain a Raya anchor for a comparative test, there may be an alternative. The Sword anchor (made by the Spade manufacturer) is similar to the Raya in that it:
- is "new generation" (whatever that may or may not signify)
- has a sharp edge for penetration
- has a large holding surface area
- has no roll-bar
- is marketed as lower cost than the Spade

It is mostly being offered for sale on websites in France and the Channel Islands. The US distributor is listed as:
GREAT LAKES MARINE SPECIALTIES (NAVSTORE)
Rich Jamieson
7600 WEST 27th Street, Suite B1 - Minneapolis, MN 55426

Tel toll free: 800 821 0207

The Navstore web site does not provide list prices, however, so it is unclear whether they have stock. If they have, maybe there is still an outside chance for a beach comparison for this "style" of anchor.
It could be worth a toll-free call. Is there a forum member currently in the US that will volunteer to check the supply situation with Rich Jamieson?

Martin
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Old 08-10-2009, 10:25   #107
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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
A couple of comments about the video. One being that the pull is horizonal vs in real life there will be more of a vertical component present.
For those of you in this camp of thought, on why the CQR did not set, I have made two more videos. One is at 4:1 and one is at 2:1..

No difference, the CQR still did not set..

CQR Setting In Hard Sand @ 4:1 Scope (LINK)

CQR Setting In Hard Sand @ 2:1 Scope (LINK)
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Old 08-10-2009, 12:47   #108
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While Therapy might have made an honest pitch to AnchoraLatina,


. I emailed AnchoraLatina on the delivered price for an anchor for my 34' Sabre in Maryland, and the price for a 27lb Raya 1000 was $873, $400 purchase and $473 shipping.

Yep.

With the above knowledge I hereby rescind my request for one to test.
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Old 08-10-2009, 14:28   #109
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[QUOTE=Maine Sail;343800]For those of you in this camp of thought, on why the CQR did not set, I have made two more videos. One is at 4:1 and one is at 2:1..

No difference, the CQR still did not set..

...

That's pretty pathetic, huh? Hard to believe how many people still swear by the CQR. I have always thought that the weight and mass of the swivel up above the blade was the problem in getting it set and reset.

I have never used one and have plans to do so. Delta for me, until some prices come down on the new anchors.
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Old 08-10-2009, 15:03   #110
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[QUOTE=speedoo;343900]
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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
No difference, the CQR still did not set..

That's pretty pathetic, huh? Hard to believe how many people still swear by the CQR.
Truth be told...we actually swear at them

Whether you like it or not MaineSail you are our Guru and I firmly believe the no hype tests you have done will actually save some lives.

Thanks again and it is a shame that Raya will not come to the comparison as the no Rollbar design if it works as well asManson or Rocna would be preferred by me in my upcoming purchase
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Old 08-10-2009, 15:19   #111
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[QUOTE=Pelagic;343922]
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Originally Posted by speedoo View Post

Truth be told...we actually swear at them

Whether you like it or not MaineSail you are our Guru and I firmly believe the no hype tests you have done will actually save some lives.

Thanks again and it is a shame that Raya will not come to the comparison as the no Rollbar design if it works as well asManson or Rocna would be preferred by me in my upcoming purchase

Yep.
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Old 08-10-2009, 18:52   #112
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Testing anchors

I will be more than pleased to send one... (and even one full container of ) anchor free of charge including shipping, to have an INDEPENDANT test of the RAYA, done the most scientifically possible.

But I’m not ready to spend one penny (or Real) to pull an anchor on the beach, beside a CQR (genuine or not)

This type of test has already been done either by Manufacturers and Nautical Magazines, and if I remember well, the procedure has been highly criticized on all nautical forums. Why the same procedure done by a sailor would it be better??

« New Gen » Anchors are setting better than a CQR! What a scoop! . If one is manufacturing a « new Gen » anchor which is not at least as good, and possibly better than a CQR, it would better go fishing (or doing something else)

Setting ability is the FIRST important characteristic of a good anchor, but it is not the only one...

One very interesting thing shown in Mainsail’s video, are the two different sequences of the « Roll bar » anchor:
1° the anchor digs in very fast... up to the horizontal position of the anchor,
2° then it seems that the « RB » anchor remain stable, not digging in any more.

Is it due to the presence of the « roll bar »??

« Hoopless» anchors are continuing to dig in more and more deeply.




It is interesting to test how anchors are setting, at different scopes, in different bottoms, but it is also interesting to test other characteristics, such as HOLDING!

The last “SAIL” test was completely flawed as they stopped the test at (+/-) the limit of the measuring equipment. Holding should be measured AND RECORDED up to the dragging (or breaking free) of the anchor.

One other important characteristic is the behavior of anchors when the wind or the current is shifting 180°...

Etc..

Testing all these characteristics is requiring a lot of time and equipment, and I do not think this will be possibly made by an « amateur » (as good as he will be!)

Raya anchors have been sent to several well known nautical magazines world wide and they are currently under test... We also are impatiently waiting to see the results??

Joćo
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Old 08-10-2009, 21:33   #113
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Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post
Raya anchors have been sent to several well known nautical magazines world wide and they are currently under test... We also are impatiently waiting to see the results

Joćo
Joao

That is good news, thanks for letting us know. Like you, we'll be looking forward to the publication of new anchor test results.

You're correct, penetration is not the only criterion, and holding power and resetting after wind direction changes are equally important.

Maine Sail's beach tests admittedly did not focus on the latter aspects, which would need a load measurement instrument and higher available pulling force.

However, one must also admit that unless the thing penetrates and 'grabs' in the first instance, its ultimate holding power is a moot point. So penetration capability is also of interest, and to visually see the moment of penetration is instructive, if nothing else. And good penetration ability does bode well for handling 180 degree wind changes.

Even though Maine Sail's experiments are not scientific per se, they did show potential differences between anchors in how they penetrate sandy and harder packed surfaces, and as such do add to the body of empirical understanding on current anchors.

Some anchor tests I have seen over the years, have been conducted in a similar informal fashion, with the only differences being:
a) Use of load measurement equipment
b) Higher pulling force available
c) Anchors thrown off the back of a boat
d) Participants wear white coats

Don't know how much true "science" that adds to the experiments, but the load figures and perceived independence of the parties do add value. So we look forward to new test results in the press (and for better or for worse, it should get that "no independent tests" monkey off your back).

Martin
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Old 08-10-2009, 21:38   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post

Setting ability is the FIRST important characteristic of a good anchor, but it is not the only one...

It is interesting to test how anchors are setting, at different scopes, in different bottoms, but it is also interesting to test other characteristics, such as HOLDING!

And this is what one test said of the only anchor I've seen independently tested that is similar in design and or resembles the Raya.

This is what was said of the Oceane anchor (the Raya design is strikingly similar looking to the Oceane);

"The Oceane was a good example of why it’s worthwhile testing at different locations. It failed to set at the first and third locations – even at 7:1 scope it only managed a brief dig-in at 800 lb – but at the second location it set and held at maximum 5,000 lb pulling power on multiple pulls. Since our tests, the Oceane has been superseded by the ‘Sword’."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post
The last “SAIL” test was completely flawed as they stopped the test at (+/-) the limit of the measuring equipment. Holding should be measured AND RECORDED up to the dragging (or breaking free) of the anchor.


So 5000 pounds is not enough? Sure the Rocna, Spade, manson Supreme, Oceane and a few others hit the 5k mark but how often will the average boat using a 35 +/- pound anchor ever see 5000 pounds of load?? Not very often. If they do I would hope they break out their storm anchor not their every day working anchor.

The ABYC data suggests that at 60 knots the average load is still only approx 3600 pounds on a 35 footer. Sail tested the 35 pound +/- anchors which are mostly suitable for boats between 30 & 35 feet. Sure, I'd like to have seen a digital strain gauge with a higher range but to call it flawed because they cut it off at 5k is a stretch. How many boaters don't break out the storm anchor at 50 knots?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post
Testing all these characteristics is requiring a lot of time and equipment, and I do not think this will be possibly made by an « amateur » (as good as he will be!)


With all due respect I have never met a "professional" anchor tester??
Is that a degree? I actually do have a degrees in science and work in the field of science so I understand trial design, controls and such. I never claimed my test represented anything other than the ability to penetrate a hard substrate. I do however plan on ordering my own digital strain gauge. Not just for anchors though but it will come in handy. Nobody really trusts anchor manufacturers any more so I wanted to do an "independent" test that displayed setting characteristics so people could see what happens other than on the videos on the Rocna site....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancora Latina View Post
Raya anchors have been sent to several well known nautical magazines world wide and they are currently under test... We also are impatiently waiting to see the results??

Joćo
This is good to hear now all we need is shipping that does not cost double what the anchor does.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:56   #115
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Sildene,

With regard to the Sword, which seems to have significant "value" (price for performance) points over the Spade, I have contacted both the manufacturer and Great Lakes about getting a Sword in the US.

Sword says they only have one US distributor for the Spade and none for the Sword but "are working on a distribution network" and they "have more goodies in the works" but agree that there is a problem for US buyers at this time.

Great Lakes says they don't stock or distribute the Sword, but that they could look into getting one on their next Spade order -- sometime in 2010. They didn't mention a price (it's not like it's on their price sheet).

It does seem odd to me that the US is largely shunned with regards to anchors. No Sword, minimal Spade, no Raya, no Bugel. Are we considered too "cheap?" Does our import/tax structure make it too difficult? Is our market considered too small? Are our major distribution networks too resistant to change (but Defender is pretty open minded -- they stock EVERYTHING!)? I'm a believer in the free market -- if it makes money, sellers will sell, or so I believe. What gives?

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Old 09-10-2009, 05:56   #116
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... So 5000 pounds is not enough? Sure the Rocna, Spade, manson Supreme, Oceane and a few others hit the 5k mark but how often will the average boat using a 35 +/- pound anchor ever see 5000 pounds of load?? Not very often. If they do I would hope they break out their storm anchor not their every day working anchor ...
EXACTLY!
Wouldn’t any decent length of ½" or 5/8" chain, as required to support a 5,000# load, weigh significantly more than the 35# anchor?
Would a boat deploying a 35# anchor be likely to have cleats or chain stoppers capable of supporting the 5,000# load?
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:22   #117
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Standardized, "scientific" tests are good because they control for conditions and thusly, every anchor is supposedly treated the same with the only difference being the performance observed. However, these types of tests are criticized because they cannot replicate "field" conditions in every respect. Field tests, though, cannot standardize and control for those conditions and thus, each anchor tested won't be treated exactly the same. There simply is no way to reconcile this problem.

For myself, over the last two years I've tried to talk with each cruiser I've run across that had a Manson or Rocna hanging on their bow. From a modest 25' mono to a monster, 70' Sunreef cat, as well as, of course, my own 44' St. Francis. I've yet to run into someone who said that their anchor was merely "OK". Everybody has simply loved them, saying it was the best all around anchor they've ever had.

I have no doubt that there are, and will be, other anchors that will do just as well, but this does tell me that if someone is looking for a great daily use, all around anchor, either a Manson or Rocna would be a really good choice.

I have a question, though: If my Rocna kept put at up to 5000 #, would not that basically qualify as my "storm anchor"? What could do better, that I could actually keep on my boat?

ID
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:31   #118
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The 2006 Sail Magazine test stopped at 5000lbs because that was the limit of their equipment. Depending on the bottom, some of the anchors could have held dramatically more (i.e. Rocna, Manson).
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:51   #119
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I have a question, though: If my Rocna kept put at up to 5000 #, would not that basically qualify as my "storm anchor"? What could do better, that I could actually keep on my boat?

ID
Depends what you consider a storm.

This is from Alain Fraysse's model on rode loads. This does not take into waves, surging or yawing.

44' vessel

30 Knots = 1348 pounds
40 knots = 2396
50 knots = 3743
60 knots = 5390
70 knots = 7336
80 knots = 9582
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:44   #120
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For myself, over the last two years I've tried to talk with each cruiser I've run across that had a Manson or Rocna hanging on their bow. I've yet to run into someone who said that their anchor was merely "OK".
ID
Hmmm . . . have you read my posts above - I think both the supreme and ROCNA we had were "OK".

Your sample is a bit self serving - if the folks have an anchor on their bow, it's likely they think it is a pretty good anchor at least for their cruising.
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