What if we had "intent" in anchoring laws?

[2hullvenus]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I think it's the same basic principal as a mooring field or a marina. The waterman provides services to many users (ie: everyone eating the seafood they catch), so they tend to get priority since more people enjoy the benefit.

When they encroach on navigation channels and creates a safety risk is where it enters a gray area.

And they do pay to use the public waters.

Annual license, plus a per trap fee.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Polux

As Tomfl have been saying the problem relates with the number of sailboats (even if I don't know if they are too much) and the use of public waters for anchoring.

That is not a problem before they are crowded and no need to regulate that at that stage but when crowded the problem arises in what regards the right of appropriation from one sailor to public waters over the right of others to use that space too.

If we are talking about a permanent mooring the only solution that will award rights to the one that is there is a payed public service concession to someone that will do the management of the area, selling the right to moor and providing a buoy. That way the space continues to be public but it is rented by the state through a concessionaire.

That is also a solution we can find in Europe and in some places, the more touristic ones, those buoys can be pretty expensive. Croatia is the country that uses more that system that allows a much bigger number of boats on an anchorage than if they were on anchor.

I guess the problem was raised first here because there are more sailboats here than anywhere, particularly on the med.

I have seen massive changes in Boot Key Harbor over the years. This was due to the increase in the number of boats using the harbor (which by most accounts is the best harbor in the Florida Keys to anchor). Mooring balls were installed which increased the number of boats that could be accommodated. Pumpout boats were bought (mostly with federal funds, and state pass through federal funds) and use was mandatory. On the other hand some of the free dinghy docks were removed or had their use restricted. In season there are probably more boats anchored in the harbor than use the mooring balls (if you include those anchored in Sisters Creek and behind Knights Key.

There have bee a small number of failures of the mooring balls even with regular repair by the marina. There have also been complaints about the cost of using the mooring balls and dinghy dock as being too high.

Problem is that the marina is not running in the black, and even more so if you take into account the retirement obligation of the marina workers.

So how can this problem be solved. Scarce resources and heavy demand would suggest increased prices but there is already resistance to the current price level. The marina charges five cents a gallon for water but after hours it is common to see folks stealing water and using the dinghy dock without paying. There use to be dinghy docks at Publix grocery store and West Marine but both are closed due to abuse by boaters. Same goes for folks using the showers/restrooms and garbage dumpsters with out paying.

Someone has to pay for the water, docks, mooring balls, pumpout boats, employees, and associated facilities. Not to mention the environmental damage done by boats anchoring in sensitive areas and discharging waste. That someone is the tax payers of the state of Florida. So from the point of view of Florida residents providing anchorages/mooring fields is a money pit. As for those who say cruisers provide a boost to the economy explain why Publix or West Marine would close their dinghy docks.

I have lived in Florida for well over 60 years and am not happy with the changes. The freedom to sail and anchor where ever you like is coming to an end. I may not like it, but I do accept the reality of the changes and have learned to live with them.

[Dave22q]

Scarce resources and heavy demand would suggest increased prices but there is already resistance to the current price level. The marina charges five cents a gallon for water but after hours it is common to see folks stealing water and using the dinghy dock without paying. There use to be dinghy docks at Publix grocery store and West Marine but both are closed due to abuse by boaters. Same goes for folks using the showers/restrooms and garbage dumpsters with out paying.

I also live in Boot Key and know someone has to pay for the water, docks, mooring balls, pumpout boats, employees, and associated facilities. Not to mention the environmental damage done by boats anchoring in sensitive areas and discharging waste. That someone is the tax payers of the state of Florida. So from the point of view of Florida residents providing anchorages/mooring fields is a money pit.


I also live in Boot Key and think the solution really is simple- price to more than cover the cost of the services. No reason taxpayers should have to fund private boating beyond the basics- ramps, parking lots, etc. The 'free loaders' who steal services or goods need to be caught and fined at levels sufficient to discourage imitators. As for Publix or West Marine closing dinghy docks, that proves nothing about the economic impact of live aboard boaters. Boaters are a drain on the taxpayers only when the taxpayers are dumb enough to permit it.
I do know that boaters are a big part of the local economy of the Keys and few working residents would have jobs without them. Folks generally do not come here to enjoy our beaches or night life (Key West excepted).

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

SNIP what I wrote.

I also live in Boot Key and know someone has to pay for the water, docks, mooring balls, pumpout boats, employees, and associated facilities. Not to mention the environmental damage done by boats anchoring in sensitive areas and discharging waste. That someone is the tax payers of the state of Florida. So from the point of view of Florida residents providing anchorages/mooring fields is a money pit.


I also live in Boot Key and think the solution really is simple- price to more than cover the cost of the services. No reason taxpayers should have to fund private boating beyond the basics- ramps, parking lots, etc. The 'free loaders' who steal services or goods need to be caught and fined at levels sufficient to discourage imitators. As for Publix or West Marine closing dinghy docks, that proves nothing about the economic impact of live aboard boaters. Boaters are a drain on the taxpayers only when the taxpayers are dumb enough to permit it.
I do know that boaters are a big part of the local economy of the Keys and few working residents would have jobs without them. Folks generally do not come here to enjoy our beaches or night life (Key West excepted).

Publix and West Marine closed their docks because the dinghys using them were not patronizing Publix and West Marine, rather they were left there hours or days while the owners went elsewhere. Not to mention liability considerations.

Marathon's economy is based more on charter fishing more than visiting boaters. The customers of charter boats stay in the local hotels and eat and drink at local establishments. They far out number boaters.

As for the taxpayers being "dumb" that is what the proposed anchoring restrictions are addressing. At first the cost was not enough to raise eye brows, but as it increased the burden of boaters was sufficient to be noticed.

Again I am not saying I am happy with restrictions on cruisers, just that I understand why a majority of Florida residents are in favor of the restrictions.

[2hullvenus]

I think Obama fixed this one already.

The answer is.... CUBA!!

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus

I think Obama fixed this one already.

The answer is.... CUBA!!

You may need to get up to speed about anchoring laws in Cuba.

General rule is you can not anchor anywhere.

If your boat is visible from shore the Guardia will tell you so but often mention you are allowed to anchor behind an island that will block view from the mainland and if you do anchor you are not allowed to leave your boat to go to shore. You have to be at a marina to go ashore.

There are real upsides to a visit to Cuba; but don't kid yourself. Cuba is a communist dictatorship with a massive secret police force that is very serious about things they consider illegal (think guns, drugs, anything with GPS like cell phones, and currency they don't like).

Florida allows a lot more freedom in anchoring that many other states and countries, especially if you get away from cities.

[2hullvenus]

Originally Posted by tomfl

You may need to get up to speed about anchoring laws in Cuba.

General rule is you can not anchor anywhere.

If your boat is visible from shore the Guardia will tell you so but often mention you are allowed to anchor behind an island that will block view from the mainland and if you do anchor you are not allowed to leave your boat to go to shore. You have to be at a marina to go ashore.

There are real upsides to a visit to Cuba; but don't kid yourself. Cuba is a communist dictatorship with a massive secret police force that is very serious about things they consider illegal (think guns, drugs, anything with GPS like cell phones, and currency they don't like).

Florida allows a lot more freedom in anchoring that many other states and countries, especially if you get away from cities.

I was just joking, but I do disagree with the last paragraph.

Most other states have municipal docks set up by the town, just for the purpose of landing your dinghy and exploring/shopping/etc. it's a secure dock right in the center of town.

I don't see many of these in any parts of Florida.

[Custom30]

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus

Most other states have municipal docks set up by the town, just for the purpose of landing your dinghy and exploring/shopping/etc. it's a secure dock right in the center of town.

I don't see many of these in any parts of Florida.

I can think of several without trying.


Apalachicola, Carabelle, Dunedin, Clearwater Beach (2), Ft. Myers Beach, just to name a few. Seems you have missed some "parts of Florida", like 2/3 of it. Very large State with lots of coastline for such general statements.


'

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Custom30

I can think of several without trying.


Apalachicola, Carabelle, Dunedin, Clearwater Beach (2), Ft. Myers Beach, just to name a few. Seems you have missed some "parts of Florida", like 2/3 of it. Very large State with lots of coastline for such general statements.


'

The source of disagreement between you and 2hulls is most likely because he is talking about what I will call the over crowded East Coast while your examples are all on the West Coast. I would venture to say 2hulls has limited experience in cruising in Florida. In fact I suspect he also has limited experience in cruising as it is the exception rather than the rule for a town to have a secure free dock in the middle of town.

What a lot of towns do have is a ramp to launch boats (mostly outboards) on trailers and small short term use docks for boats launched from the ramps. Lets keep in mind that there are a lot more folks with outboards on trailers than folks with cruising boats, and even fewer with sailboats that draw more water than power boats and also have those tall skinny things sticking way up in the air and sometimes hit bridges. It makes sense for governments to cater to the much larger group of folks who trailer their outboards than the much smaller group who live on their boats.

Another consideration is what I will call the five Floridas. The first is from the Georgia line to somewhere North of West Palm. There are some restrictions there but it is not close to what happens as you head South towards the Keys, and is the second Florida. The Keys are a place unto themselves and according to some folks in the Keys are not really a part of Florida, but I will call them the third Florida. From the Everglades to around Tampa is sorta like the first Florida in terms of welcoming boaters, the forth Florida. From say Cedar Key to the Alabama line is the fifth Florida and is very different than the other four. I would also note that there are some small towns in all these areas that are exceptions.

Sad to say there are a lot of folks like 2hulls who have never been any place in Florida but down the ICW on the East coast with short stops till they get to Miami or the Keys so they wind up with a very distorted opinion of what cruising in Florida really is.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

...
I also live in Boot Key and think the solution really is simple- price to more than cover the cost of the services. No reason taxpayers should have to fund private boating beyond the basics- ramps, parking lots, etc. The 'free loaders' who steal services or goods need to be caught and fined at levels sufficient to discourage imitators. As for Publix or West Marine closing dinghy docks, that proves nothing about the economic impact of live aboard boaters. Boaters are a drain on the taxpayers only when the taxpayers are dumb enough to permit it.
I do know that boaters are a big part of the local economy of the Keys and few working residents would have jobs without them. Folks generally do not come here to enjoy our beaches or night life (Key West excepted).

The problem is that the price of a marina berth is very high. When they are low normally the marina is using part of some port that was payed with tax payer's money.

Some years ago I took a professional interest in what regards marina's sustainability and costs/prices and found out that most marinas that are built expressly for that purpose rely on urban development linked to the marina to be sustainable and to give a profit.

On the Southern cost of Spain the regional government built along the 90's several marinas to develop tourism and even if they practice prices that would be considered high on the US almost all are not profitable (even if full) and many are only maintained at the tax payer's cost, subsidized by regional government.

Yes, it is possible to have sustainable marinas with boaters paying fully for them but the price of a berth for 15 years would be more than the value of most sailboats around.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by 2hullvenus

I
Most other states have municipal docks set up by the town, just for the purpose of landing your dinghy and exploring/shopping/etc. it's a secure dock right in the center of town.

I don't see many of these in any parts of Florida.

Having done the Great Loop, a town having a free dock is the exception rather than the rule everywhere but if anything Florida had more free docks than most other states (of course they have more coastline than most other states, so not sure if they win on a per mile basis).

[a64pilot]

Best "free" dock I have ever seen was in Clearwater, Must be at least 200' of floating Concrete dock, I tied up my IP 38 for the day to get a rental car, was given access to free water as much as I wanted to wash down the deck, and fill the tanks and the free pump out is at the outside corner of the Marina.
Very nice establishment and staff, their opinion of liveaboards was interesting. I asked as I was curious and the answer was "we don't allow that kind of thing, we are a nice marina"
Real nice guy, have to wonder what formed his opinion of liveaboards?

[Schooner Chandlery]

Seeing the posts about liveaboards and cruisers not paying taxes, dumping undesirable things, etc, reminded me of this video I made 3 years ago about the topic ... Enjoy the catchy music and feel free to share it if you like the video ... link

[2hullvenus]

Originally Posted by tomfl

The source of disagreement between you and 2hulls is most likely because he is talking about what I will call the over crowded East Coast while your examples are all on the West Coast. I would venture to say 2hulls has limited experience in cruising in Florida. In fact I suspect he also has limited experience in cruising as it is the exception rather than the rule for a town to have a secure free dock in the middle of town.

What a lot of towns do have is a ramp to launch boats (mostly outboards) on trailers and small short term use docks for boats launched from the ramps. Lets keep in mind that there are a lot more folks with outboards on trailers than folks with cruising boats, and even fewer with sailboats that draw more water than power boats and also have those tall skinny things sticking way up in the air and sometimes hit bridges. It makes sense for governments to cater to the much larger group of folks who trailer their outboards than the much smaller group who live on their boats.

Another consideration is what I will call the five Floridas. The first is from the Georgia line to somewhere North of West Palm. There are some restrictions there but it is not close to what happens as you head South towards the Keys, and is the second Florida. The Keys are a place unto themselves and according to some folks in the Keys are not really a part of Florida, but I will call them the third Florida. From the Everglades to around Tampa is sorta like the first Florida in terms of welcoming boaters, the forth Florida. From say Cedar Key to the Alabama line is the fifth Florida and is very different than the other four. I would also note that there are some small towns in all these areas that are exceptions.

Sad to say there are a lot of folks like 2hulls who have never been any place in Florida but down the ICW on the East coast with short stops till they get to Miami or the Keys so they wind up with a very distorted opinion of what cruising in Florida really is.

Mostly agree, except by "municipal dock", i mean what you are calling the boat ramps.

A dingy dock. A vast majority of towns in the northeast have them as do many towns all the way to Florida.

They get less plentiful as you get into Florida.

Never went around the "other side" of Florida yet by boat. Seems like a nice area to me, just want to bring someone with me, as it's a little different for me. Need to bring a girl along on that one, rather than meet them along the way. Though, i nearly did go over there this winter.

Reality is, it's too far when I need to return to the north in spring. Lots of long miles to do to get to Tampa/StPete. Lots of hours. Hours better spent working on the boat and having a social life.

I've been from Venezuela to Prince Edward Island. So... you're kind of far off on that.

[Don1500]

And my girlfriend wonders why I always find a reason to NOT go south of Vero.