So what's the deal with my two anchors?

[thereefgeek]

Yo man, I think you may have sent me an email about something else (Hull #92, right?), but our T37 also came with 2 CQRs. Do yourself a favor and unshackle them from the chains and let them sink where they fall.

We put a 55lb Rocna Vulcan on our sprit boat a few years ago because the one with the rollbar doesn't fit well on these boats. I built a new anchor platform and moved the roller aft and inboard because I'm not a huge fan of having the anchors hanging way out on the end of the bowsprit (just my opinion). I left a space for a second anchor roller and I'm leaning toward a 25lb. Fortress with a chain and rode for the warping drum side of our [not quite installed] new Lofans windlass. I'm selling the manual SL-555 and getting the SS bracket welded up to fit the new electric footprint with a new tab for the inner forestay.

Feel free to hit me off book if you want to avoid a 15 page anchor-debate thread....

Originally Posted by tradrockrat

Hi all -

Just got a new to me Tayana 37 and sitting up front are two QCR anchors - one 45 lbs, one 35 lbs.

Forgive what might be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but why would a Tayana 37 have two QCR's with only a 10 lb. differences in weight?

[jeepers]

Old methods.
When you went or go aground or on a reef. Time is of the essence.
Two anchors are needed expetitiously.
There are a number of methods.
The methods employed depends on many factors.
1.Hull shape; full keel versus fin keel and rudder type
2. Gounding material; soft or hard.
3. Sea state; Calm, waves, rollers and tides.
4. The boats existing Plan as SOP/SOG for such emergencies eg. Abandoning Ship Plan.
There are primary & secondary actions required
A. Securing the boat against advancing further aground. (Full & fin keels) OR
B. Turning the boat 90' or 180'... (fin keel)
On multi mast.Maybe leaving the mizzen sail up to assist turning of the boat.(Fin keel)
Methods;
C. A second anchor maybe needed to stop the vessel being rotated to a disadvantageous heel.
D. Pulling the boat along the path travelled; (full keel)
By taking 2 anchors astern; By 1 anchor on Port side & 1 anchor on starboard side. Using the dinghy to gain further length.*In many cases having a small splay angle between the anchors and the further astern, the better as well.
This practice can be seen in historic rescues of Tallships long ago. Of rowboats with anchors laying over the rails of the rowboats rowed far away from the stricken vessel.
By taking the anchors far astern facillitates a mechanical advantage process.
After the anchor is submerged, set and the slack taken up. The rowboat(s) being deployed midway along the long lined stern anchors at a right angle pull. OR another smaller anchor is deployed at a right angle pull midway along the long line of deployed astern anchor. By applying a side force to the long anchor lines @ the mid point. A huge multiplicative factor or force generated exists. Depending on the length of the line & level of tautness. By alternating the pull at the mid point a "wiggling" or "wagging" or fishtailling action can be used to draw the vessel astern. The ability to tighten up these long anchor lines after a side pull is imperative to the success in both efficasy and efficiency.
The same above method can be used for turning a boat on the grounding or pulling away from the grounding. By using 2 anchored lines. This prevents rudder damage or the boat getting pushed aground stern first, by the waves, wind & swell.
Opinion;I care not much for the anchor brand.
There are 2 types of anchors. A. Those that work on the day you need it most. Whether it is size or weight recommended and/or successful in the application (as described above) B. If it fails at any time it never was an anchor only poorly applied ballast.

[thereefgeek]

Originally Posted by jeepers

Old methods.

Where did you cut and paste that from?
Do you even have a boat?

[ChrisPuget]

I singlehand cruise the PNW, BC coast and Haida Gwaii in my Catalina 36 MKII. The past few years I have been using, with pleasure, a Rocna Vulcan 15 kg with 130' of 3/8" chain, 180' of Samson 5/8" nylon 3 strand rode, rated Crosby shackle with no swivel. The Mantus "Anchor Mate" works to stabilize the anchor on the roller and was an easy install. I also use the Mantus anchor bridle. The windlass is not overpowered by this combination that I believe has been a good compromise for this boat and has been used at some relatively deep anchorages. The Vulcan has quickly grabbed the bottom and is not difficult to release when retrieving. I keep a Danforth on the stern pulpit with 30' of 3/8" chain and 150' of 5/8" nylon rope. Had a claw on the boat for a spare, but it has now been demoted to lawn art.

[billve]

I largely agree with everything on this thread. I chose a Mantus M1 (55#) for my Catalina 425 (42 ft, 16,000 lb before equipment). Check out this anchor sizing chart from Mantus:
https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-...-3088b152-cc33


It might be a touch more conservative than Rocna, but I liked it because it acknowledges the difference in size required for a day anchor, typical overnight or full-on storm anchor.


Also, I would argue that a second anchor is desirable simply for kedging out, and not just as a backup if the main fails or must be cut away. I learned the value of this the hard way, when I was at Marina Cay in BVI. I thought my rode might be a little short, but hey, the wind was light! At 2am, I changed my mind as I was getting REALLY close to my neighbor to leeward in 20+ knots of wind... ;-)



-BVE

[jeepers]

Originally Posted by thereefgeek

Where did you cut and paste that from?
Do you even have a boat?

No. I don't have "a" boat. I presently have 3.
A Diller Schwill and 2 Grampians / other boats back to 1992.

I didn't cut and paste my comment or opinion from anywhere.
I created it. A (Action) Plan from education, experience and profession.

It is part of my Plan, SOP's /SOG's for dealing with:
1. Fire on Board
2. Abandoning ship
3. Aground
4. Loss of Power
5. Loss of Power (critical)
6. Loss of Anchor-ing
7. Loss of Radio, Instrumentation & systems.
8. Loss of Rigging (critical) (eg. demasting)
9. Taking on Water
10. Taking on Water (critical)
11. Recovery & Salvage
12. Miscellaneous
13. Sinking
14. Medical
15. Medical (critical

[hcfirstlight]

We have an HC 33. We do carry two CQRs on our bowsprit platform, and have done so for over 26 years; a 45 lb and a 35 lb. The best reason I can offer for this arrangement is that we have found no other anchor, even the newer styles, which fit perfectly onto our twin rollers and secure for when under sail. Be certain to check your roller arrangement before purchasing a new anchor for your Tayana. Also, despite the valid experiences of others, we can count on a couple of fingers the times when our 45 lb CQR has not set and held. The 35 lb is a backup, as are our large fortress and a 70 lb Paul Luke fisherman.

[sailingharry]

If I were given your situation, I'd ditch the 35 lb CQR (pretty worthless anchor, in any size) and replace it with a well sized modern anchor. It will provide all you need. But, since you already have the 45 lb CQR up there, I'd keep it. Probably never use it, but if you somehow end up losing your primary, it's there. Also, two anchors in a "Hammerhead Moor" can be useful at times, and the CQR might suffice. I'd never spend the money to get two full size modern anchors, but if you already have the CQR, it's cheap enough to keep it.


On our Saga 43, it came with a 55lb Rocna and a 45lb CQR, and I plan to keep it just that way. Note that our Saga is longer than your boat, but probably lighter and maybe the same windage -- it's a light, thin, low boat.


Note, growing up in the pre-windlass era, we had a 28,000 lb 40' ketch with a high bow that would sail all over the anchorage. We often used a pair of 22lb Danforths in a hammerhead moor -- undersized for the boat, but the two did a great job stopping the sailing and letting the anchors do their job -- and this skinny kid could pull them up.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

If I were given your situation, I'd ditch the 35 lb CQR (pretty worthless anchor, in any size) and replace it with a well sized modern anchor. It will provide all you need. But, since you already have the 45 lb CQR up there, I'd keep it. Probably never use it, but if you somehow end up losing your primary, it's there. Also, two anchors in a "Hammerhead Moor" can be useful at times, and the CQR might suffice. I'd never spend the money to get two full size modern anchors, but if you already have the CQR, it's cheap enough to keep it.

I agree, the CQR would be great for a hammerLOCK moor (ahem...) and for drudging (letting it drag on the bottom to minimize sailing around at anchor)

[kmacdonald]

Rule number 1) never oversize an anchor. The manufacturer has already done that for you. No need to wrestle unnecessary weight or carry it around with you. Fortress rules!!!!! 15 pound anchor 20,000 pound boat. What's not to like about that?

[Davo1404]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Two anchors on the bow is useful, but the current thinking is that the weight of the second anchor and chain would be better put to a larger single anchor often with longer chain. A large single anchor has higher holding capacity than two smaller anchors, is much easier to deploy, and keeps the boats swing circle similar to surrounding boats that are very likely to also be using a single anchor. The longer chain allows deeper anchorages to be used. All these advantages can be achieved with less bow weight than a boat carrying two anchors on the bow.

This change in thinking has developed because modern, versatile anchors that work well in a large range of substrates have been developed. This has largely removed the need to carry anchors of different designs to match different substrates. At the same time powerful electric anchor winches have become common, allowing heavier weights to be easily managed by smaller crew.

The major drawback is the loss of the ability to immediately drop a second anchor should the main anchor need to be cut away. This can be easily solved with a lightweight anchor such as a Fortress on predominantly (or even all) rope rode. This combination also has many other uses. While the Fortress can serve as a temporary replacement for a lost main anchor, long distance cruising boats should consider also carrying spare primary anchor, but this can be stored away from the bow and lower down where the weight has less impact on sailing performance. Anchors with removable shanks such as the Mantus and Spade make this option much easier.

The above state of the art solution will be an expensive upgrade from your current dual CQR anchors, but the change would result in much better anchor security, while at the same time making anchoring easier.

Totally agree.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I agree, the CQR would be great for a hammerLOCK moor (ahem...) and for drudging (letting it drag on the bottom to minimize sailing around at anchor)

Here's a great guide to using the Hammerlock Moor, Drudging, and other creative anchoring strategies.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I agree, the CQR would be great for a hammerLOCK moor (ahem...) and for drudging (letting it drag on the bottom to minimize sailing around at anchor)

Well, learn something new everyday. But I'll probably forget the correct term and go back to 50 years of the wrong term by tomorrow....LOL.


The older I get, the more I start to question what I know. I remember the day I walked into a chandlery and asked for "an inchworm." Well, at least, that's what my father called a short stainless eyestrap. I still call them inchworms. Something about old dogs and new tricks. Or maybe senility....

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Rule number 1) never oversize an anchor. The manufacturer has already done that for you. No need to wrestle unnecessary weight or carry it around with you. Fortress rules!!!!! 15 pound anchor 20,000 pound boat. What's not to like about that?

I have to disagree. Rule #1 of a boating forum should be to not make generalizations for all boats in all conditions.

The needs of a weekend sailor is a lot different from a full time cruiser.

Optimum ground tackle for one cruising area will not be the same for another.

I love my Fortress (FX 37, 20 ton boat) for a kedge and stern anchor, but not for days/weeks on the hook in a tidal area requiring the ability to reliably reset in different directions multiple times.

When you live on the hook, peace of mind is golden. I took the advice of Morgan's Cloud (great resource for cruisers, worth the subscription) and sized my primary bower to be my storm anchor. It makes a lot of sense to me that when a storm kicks up is not when you want to try to switch anchors.

High latitude cruising requires the ability to be securely anchored during strong, fast moving storms of gale force winds in deep anchorages. Most boats don't want a lot of weight in the bow, I upgraded to 500 feet of chain for PNW. Most boats want the smallest, lightest anchor practical, I want something that sets fast, digs deep, and holds in the most severe conditions we will encounter.

So I recently let go of my trusty Rocna Vulcan in favor of an oversized Excel, and while it's a fair amount of work to raise it, the effort required tells me that it is deeply and firmly set, which gives me a lot of peace of mind. Here's a thread about that

True story about my Fortress that you and Noelex might appreciate- we were attempting to anchor during a storm in SF Bay off China Beach, a location notorious for being a difficult anchorage.

After 3 unsuccessful tries with our Vulcan I was tired and wet and frustrated, so I threw the Fortress overboard (it was not on it's own bow roller) and it bit right away and held us for 3 days with winds up to 40 knots. This experience was the beginning of discovering the quirks and limitations of the Vulcan, and illustrates the wisdom having an emergency anchor of a different type when your primary bower isn't setting.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Well, learn something new everyday. But I'll probably forget the correct term and go back to 50 years of the wrong term by tomorrow....LOL.


The older I get, the more I start to question what I know. I remember the day I walked into a chandlery and asked for "an inchworm." Well, at least, that's what my father called a short stainless eyestrap. I still call them inchworms. Something about old dogs and new tricks. Or maybe senility....

Inchworm, love it, thanks for the laugh! Us old guys have to stick together.

I will say that necessity and lifestyle influences functioning. While my memory, muscles and joints aren't what they used to be, being a full time cruiser keeps me on my toes and continuing to learn new tricks.