Setting Two Anchors

[SaltyMonkey]

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by craigsmith

It would make even less difference in both cases!

You see, 2+2=4 is only a theory. The real world is different.

NOT.

[Auspicious]

In order to get anything like the kind of results you anticipate the weight of the kellet would have to be impractical. Alain Fraysse (not Alain Poiraud - a different fellow) has down some very approachable analysis that includes Excel models that you can download and experiment with. The upshot is that a kellet is a lot of work for not much gain.

Earl Hinz, in the classic but dated The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring spends half a page on kellets that comes across as intuition-based. In short he says "The function of the kellet is to steepen the initial drop of the rode and to flatten out the rode on the sea bottom to decrease the anchor lead angle." Fine. Deterministic analysis makes it clear that in order to perform that function as winds increase the weight of the kellet must increase beyond that practical to deploy.

I know that the US Navy has evaluated unconventional approaches including kellets and tandem anchoring for small boats and concluded the practices are without useful merit. I don't have access to the studies any longer but will try to track them down.

[SaltyMonkey]

So what are we left with now with this thread? Assume since no one has counter argued the Kellet approach that it's not a viable practice. Have we determined any best practices so far on what is a practical methodology for various anchoring scenarios? Hard to tell at this point..but it feels depressing.

[thinwater]

I have sneaking suspicion that much of the traditional anchoring "art" comes from the days before efficient anchors and when the alternative to chain was hemp.

Cordage has come incredibly far since these ideas were proven, but sailing change slowly.

[countrybimm]

30 foot oday with a 75 pound plow anchor.a bear to pull up, but great nights sleep.anyone who said u can over anchor hasnt had there boat slip.

[craigsmith]

Originally Posted by countrybimm

30 foot oday with a 75 pound plow anchor.a bear to pull up, but great nights sleep.anyone who said u can over anchor hasnt had there boat slip.

Or you could be using an efficient new generation anchor of half the size which would still be more reliable.

Originally Posted by thinwater

I have sneaking suspicion that much of the traditional anchoring "art" comes from the days before efficient anchors and when the alternative to chain was hemp.

Precisely, and a lot of the material that is out there is frankly misleading as it attempts to stay true to the lore. Read Auspicious' comment for some genuine insight into that...

The other factor is that much of the lore is actually correct, but it only applies to larger ships, originating from the old days, and does not scale down to size boats most here are using.

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

So what are we left with now with this thread? Assume since no one has counter argued the Kellet approach that it's not a viable practice. Have we determined any best practices so far on what is a practical methodology for various anchoring scenarios? Hard to tell at this point..but it feels depressing.

I'm not sure what you're asking, there are obvious and sensible 'methodologies' that just involve common sense and no irrational beliefs in accessories that do little/nothing. Fraysse, I think linked to above, does a decent job, but it's all a bit theoretical. I think the gist of it is laid out concisely enough here, with nothing that should be surprising to anyone:
www.rocna.com/kb/Rode_optimizations
You take your boat, intended locale, and budget into account and vary to suit.

[SailFastTri]

One very good use of a kellet is to keep boats on rope rode from drifting into others when the wind drops to zero.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

One very good use of a kellet is to keep boats on rope rode from drifting into others when the wind drops to zero.

Absolutely true.

[estarzinger]

I stay away from anchoring threads , but just thought I would repost the OP question, since this thread drifted away from the specific OP question to the 'standard anchoring arguments' which have been beaten to death many many times.

Originally Posted by captden

I just finished putting my second anchor with all chain rode on the bow and I started to wonder how do you deal with crossed anchor rodes when you set out two anchors with an all chain rode?
captden

It's an interesting practical question . . . let's put aside the questions about why you would have two anchors out on two rodes (sometimes its just the most practical solution), and why you would have both on all chain (I prefer to have my second on short chain plus nylon) . . and just think about how to deal with the situation.

My first thoughts are trying two things:

1. motor around in circles to uncross the chains.

or 2. If you have almost all of one rode out, . . . just untie/unshackle the rope from its below attachment point, bring it up on deck, tie a fender to its end, drop it all in the dinghy which is tied under the bow, and then get in the dinghy and unwrap the loose chain from the one still holding the boat.

I would not be eager to do either of these things in a blow.

I have once have to get up two crossed anchors 'quickly' in a situation where I did not want to use either of these approaches. I attached lines to the rodes in front of where they were crossed, brought those lines back to the genoa winches and winched up both anchors simultanously that way It left a mess of chain to clean up on the foredeck, but I got out of there pretty quickly. If you only have 'a little' chain out and had more time, you could use this approach on only one anchor and when the anchor is up, unshackle the chain and unwrap it from teh other rode.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

1. motor around in circles to uncross the chains.

Interesting. I haven't tried that. I have had good luck with my approach (#25 above) of using the dinghy as a tug to push the boat around.

On further thought it occurs to me that the rodes don't suddenly twist a ton of times overnight. The "answer" may well be to push the boat around and untwist it as needed each time you return to the boat in the dinghy.

[GordMay]

I’d untie the slack rode, pile the dead end rope in a bucket, and unwrap it from the loaded & connected rode.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The "answer" may well be to push the boat around and untwist it as needed each time you return to the boat in the dinghy.

We once were looking after a super yacht in Ushusia, and had to be on board 'full time', so we tied Hawk to a nearby 'ship size' mooring, with our chain rode shackled directly to the mooring chain plus two rope rodes also ties to the mooring chain. Perhaps overkill, but it can be windy there and I did not want to worry about Hawk. Once a day I would go over and spin Hawk around with the dinghy to unwrap the rodes. They seemed to get at least 3 wraps every 24 hours. But it was surprisingly slow and I could not push Hawk around in much more than about 20kts of wind.

Originally Posted by GordMay

I’d untie the slack rode, pile the dead end rope in a bucket, and unwrap it from the loaded & connected rode.

Yes, that works great if the second rode is rope, and is typically how we set a second anchor, but does not work so well with chain on the second anchor as described in the OP.

I suppose yet another way . . . the fastest way . . . would be to tie fenders to both chain rodes in front of the tangle and let both go entirely into the water. Then pick the fenders and attached chain up one at a time.The tangle 'should' slip out as you pick them up from the fenders.

[barnakiel]

Post 21 seems to come from a vendor. Should we base our judgements on what a vendor says or rather on independent testing and research? (All respect to the poster @ 21 - nothing personal, just talking the methodology thing).

Kellets not only (are supposed to) keep the rode down in dramatic conditions but also, in less windy situations, to limit the range of our swing in the anchorage (for example by being dragged across the bottom).

So, keep your kellet if you have one. Observe, and stick to it, if it works, chuck it out, if it does not. Do not throw your equipment away only because someone else claims it does not work.

Rocna is better than CQR. So should I go without my rusty trusty CQR if I do not have Rocna??? This would mean going without anchor. Well well. And the same applies to kellets.

As far as the kitchen sink drama of high wind anchoring goes I believe I have read from at least two sources (one of them the marketing materials at Rocna website) that not only the kellet is a waste of time but also than an 'all-chain' rode is an overkill (beyond some ratio).

And as far as the data on rode pull vs. wind speed is concerned I have seen a first hand account from a boater who measured the forces and found them well below the theoretical values. (Yes, I am aware of the results of the swings and surges and the variations caused by different in-design factors).

Maybe the best attitude is to read all the data (first) and opinions (why not), then go on a good cruise and test the often contradictory THEORIES. Then we can report what we found rather than argue endlessly on what we THINK might or might not work.

b.

[Healer52]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Post 21 seems to come from a vendor. Should we base our judgements on what a vendor says or rather on independent testing and research? (All respect to the poster @ 21 - nothing personal, just talking the methodology thing).

Well, I suppose we can all make all the mistakes ourselves, too. If a vendor gives me expert advice that makes sense, I'll tend to accept it. Nothing personal, of course.

But then, I've always tended to believe signs that say "Hot" or "Wet Paint".