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Old 27-04-2011, 07:05   #61
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Originally Posted by LakeSuperior View Post
Drawing conclusions from voting that is based on weak or poorly understood empirical data is dangerous for a number of reasons (consider that we used to burn witches).

Basically, I and others are suggesting a program of research that would answer the fundamental questions that cannot be answered through casual anchor use.
Okay I hear what your saying and indeed there is a bloke up in Scotland with a charter yacht that has been measuring the pull on the anchor every time he stops for a decade.

However, the time and effort to organise that sort of trial just isn't going to happen. Instead we have to rely on anecdotal comments from experienced owners who seem to repeatedly say that the new generation anchors are far superior to the likes of the CQR. Of course this should be taken in perspective that someone who has just spent the tick end of $400 on an anchor is likely to say it is the best thing since sliced bread.

There must now be thousands of new generation anchors world wide. I don't hear the owners beating a path to the manufacturers saying give us our money back. I do hear peeps saying there CQR drags, indeed the previous owner of our yacht did say he had problems with the copy CQR originally fitted, so we switched to a genuine Delta. May have chosen a Rocna but for the cost.

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Old 27-04-2011, 08:29   #62
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

I have been waiting for this back lash. As an Old Fart sailor, I can recall the introduction of the hi tensile Danforths, the Bruce (massive hype), the Bulwagga, and now the Rocna. Some of you will remember the little sandboxes at the boat show that would show positively how much superior their toy anchor was on a bath tub chain than the imitation tiny model of the one you have on your boat. Followed by boating magazines' "independent testing" that shockingly confirms their advertisers' claims. Always accompanied by marketing hype and a bunch of sailors who, having had an experience or two of not dragging when they first set their new and generally very expensive anchor, announced to their fellow sailors that "this was the IT in anchors-rendering all other obsolete and dangerous!" Only to wait until the next great new anchor is introduced. In this case, it appears that there may be some material misrepresentation which might be a new high in marketing dishonesty. But lets just wait for that next miracle anchor a few years out. Maybe this one will clean and stow itself.
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Old 27-04-2011, 08:55   #63
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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and a bunch of sailors who, having had an experience or two of not dragging when they first set their new and generally very expensive anchor, announced to their fellow sailors that "this was the IT in anchors-rendering all other obsolete and dangerous!"
Or some of us who have anchored hundreds of times with the old anchors and hundreds of times with the new anchors in the same bottoms and the same weather conditions incuding numerous gales and found a huge difference between old and new.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a difference and some of us who have been liveaboards in the hurricane belt with no boat insurance take our anchors and anchoring very seriosuly.

Let the old school stick with their "rock on a rope" antique anchors and a prayer, but I sure as hell want the best on the market when the sun goes down and the wind picks up.
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Old 27-04-2011, 08:57   #64
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Originally Posted by Pete the Cat View Post
But lets just wait for that next miracle anchor a few years out. Maybe this one will clean and stow itself.
I want THAT one!

... but I think it's gonna be a loooooong wait.
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Old 27-04-2011, 09:25   #65
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Originally Posted by Pete the Cat View Post
. But lets just wait for that next miracle anchor a few years out. Maybe this one will clean and stow itself.
Sounds like a good challenge and I will put my mind to it. I think I'll call it the BMAS (Boat Maid Anchor System)

Meanwhile I need to work on my resistance to reading these threads because I'm starting to think I wasted my money by buying a new gen anchor, and I even got 1 size up from the charts!
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Old 27-04-2011, 09:27   #66
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Or some of us who have anchored hundreds of times with the old anchors and hundreds of times with the new anchors in the same bottoms and the same weather conditions incuding numerous gales and found a huge difference between old and new.
That is a very important data point, for you, but doesn't tell a lot of other people much who continue to use older anchor styles and aren't experiencing problems. For example, our own Evans and Beth seem to prefer the Bruce-style anchor for their type of cruising, and obviously they have had excellent success with that style. They even tested the new styles against their preferred Bruce style and found the new ones lacking. Yes, I would agree that it was an unusual anchoring test, but still it is valid for Beth and Evans. Another thing I have noticed in these threads (don't know if this applies to your situation) is that some people are replacing their old-school anchor with a new generation anchor that is one or two sizes larger and then proclaiming that the new anchor is far superior to the old one. That is not a valid comparison. One of the reasons we hear more about old generation anchors dragging or causing problems is that the ratio of old-style to new is probably at least 50:1 or more. These reasons, and others, are why I tried to envision in another thread some ways to test anchors in a way that we could compare apples to apples.
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Old 27-04-2011, 09:30   #67
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Originally Posted by CSY Man View Post
Or some of us who have anchored hundreds of times with the old anchors and hundreds of times with the new anchors in the same bottoms and the same weather conditions incuding numerous gales and found a huge difference between old and new.
The fact is that there's been enormous progress in ground tackle technology in our lifetimes, with each successive generation of anchors providing a better grip on the bottom. This isn't about fads--it's about anchors that work better than older iterations.

I was a huge convert to Bruce anchors when they first came out, amazed that they could reset themselves after a change in the tidal flow. The problem was that they had trouble setting in vegetated bottoms, so I'd have to carry a Delta for those situations. But the Delta tended to drag in soft mud, so I'd carry a Fortress for that situation.

What the Rocna offered was a single anchor that could deal with all three holding situations. Unfortunately, it was being sold by a company with an absolutely horrible business plan, but this doesn't detract from the way the anchor performs.
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Old 27-04-2011, 09:45   #68
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Another thing I have noticed in these threads (don't know if this applies to your situation) is that some people are replacing their old-school anchor with a new generation anchor that is one or two sizes larger and then proclaiming that the new anchor is far superior to the old one. That is not a valid comparison.
I did the opposite:

After 10 years with a 55 lbs Delta, I replaced it with a 45 lbs Rocna.
The Rocna sets better and holds harder..

The boat came with a 35 lbs CQR but got too many sleep-less nights with that one: Drag, drag, drag...

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What the Rocna offered was a single anchor that could deal with all three holding situations
Amen bro, that pretty much sums it up..
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Old 27-04-2011, 10:28   #69
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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The boat came with a 35 lbs CQR but got too many sleep-less nights with that one: Drag, drag, drag
I had a different experience using a 35 lb. CQR on two different boats for about 17 years of living aboard everywhere from Maine to the Caribbean. I can recall badly dragging twice: once in a tornado in the Chesapeake that broke loose every other boat in the harbor, wind speed undetermined, and once in the BVIs when we didn't set the anchor properly being in a rush to get ashore and clear customs. We slept soundly all over the place, including numerous nights in your home territory of Florida and the Bahamas. It was also deployed in one hurricane and numerous gales. During the hurricane the mooring field dragged right by our boat and went ashore, but we hung in there. In any case, the experiences of a few folks on an Internet forum are interesting and informative, but they don't lead me to the conclusion that old-school anchors are obsolete.
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Old 27-04-2011, 11:20   #70
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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In any case, the experiences of a few folks on an Internet forum are interesting and informative, but they don't lead me to the conclusion that old-school anchors are obsolete.
By all means, stick with your old anchors folks, not trying to sell anything here.
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Old 27-04-2011, 13:51   #71
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Always accompanied by marketing hype and a bunch of sailors who, having had an experience or two of not dragging when they first set their new and generally very expensive anchor, announced to their fellow sailors that "this was the IT in anchors-rendering all other obsolete and dangerous!" Only to wait until the next great new anchor is introduced. In this case, it appears that there may be some material misrepresentation which might be a new high in marketing dishonesty. But lets just wait for that next miracle anchor a few years out. Maybe this one will clean and stow itself.
" I do not believe the introduction of motor cars will ever affect the riding of horses; the prophecies that have been made are likely to be falsified as have those made when the railways were introduced”
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Old 27-04-2011, 22:38   #72
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

I just spoke to Mark from Suncoast in Canada. I was at the local chandelry trying to find some old stock after reading this thread. They didn't have any but called Suncoast which is still the distributor in these parts. Mark asked to talk to me about why I was requesting old stock. He gave me permission to paraphrase our conversation here, but pointed out that he isn't an official Rocna spokesman. I didn't take notes, so I'm working from memory. Any errors or omissions are mine and not Marks, I'm sure.

As many of you know, Suncoast made Rocnas in Canada before the production was moved to China. Because of that experience, Mark was asked to go to China to help set up the facility there. The facility was chosen because of their experience with steel work for the offshore oil industry. He spent some considerable time there and was impressed with the people and the expertise. They really concentrated on the quality control and ordered a new x-ray machine for the welds which was actually a more stringent quality control measure than had been used in Canada. He was surprised to hear there were problems.

He did indicate that he'd heard from the Rocna folks that there was some sort of problem that they had detected in the steel quality early on. He thought that it had to do with a steel supplier to the plant and that the supplier had been changed. As he's one step removed from it all now, he wasn't sure of all the details.

I've worked in quality control for a manufacturing company, so I know how difficult it can be to isolate a quality problem like this, understand the root cause, and respond to any escapes. I would certainly feel better about buying a new anchor right now if I had more information about whether there had been a problem, whether it is now fixed, the possible escapes, and whether there was a risk of bad materials still being out in the inventories of the distributers. The answer to those questions would have to come from Rocna themselves.

If there was a problem, I don't know that we can blame the chinese manufacturer or Rocna for it. Problems happen to the best of manufacturers. The question really is how quickly did they detect it and how did they respond?

Chris
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Old 27-04-2011, 23:20   #73
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

You guys are cracking me up. At this very moment,
I'm sitting on my boat in an unprotected anchorage, winds howling at 25 to 30 mph for a day and a half, and bucking like a wild bronco, with my 33 lb Rocna holding steady. That's all the proof I need. I'll keep my Rocna thank you very much.

If you want proof and are crossing the Woodrow Wilson bridge in wash dc, jus look south and you'll see me across the river from national harbor.
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Old 28-04-2011, 01:05   #74
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Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Somehow I know this is all Boatman's fault. If he would just stop advocating fancy anchors we could be focusing on LED nav lights using Ipad navigation.
Hell yes. But the "anchor wars" are so much more interesting than threads on why we should all get rid of paper charts!

Meanwhile, lying peacefully on my Manson ...
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Old 28-04-2011, 06:30   #75
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pirate Re: Rocna Anchor Fail!

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Hell yes. But the "anchor wars" are so much more interesting than threads on why we should all get rid of paper charts!

Meanwhile, lying peacefully on my Manson ...
I love these anchor threads. This one has now moved into the hot topic/disclaimer list tho I dunno why.

I grew up with CQR always the best and the gods know they've done some work. But it also figures that time marches on. Things change.
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