Mooring Etiquette : Questions

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by liveaboard60

Had I been in the situation myself (in anchoring to avoid weather) I would have remained on watch regardless if another boat was around or not.. Not because I was nervous about hitting someone else, but rather to make sure my anchorage did not slip or move..

It totally seems reasonable to me if I felt the situation would not lead to me bumping a boat, and yet the other boat captain did, it would be his/her responsibility to rectify the situation (most likely) by moving..

One thing I do not see how it plays any part is the size of the two boats..

respectfully flk k

A couple of comments to this:

1. As the owner of a large boat (25 tons all up and 16 feet of beam), I can tell you that smaller boats anchored nearby can be disproportionately nervous about being crushed in case of a swinging conflict. I think this is more psychological than anything, but it's a fact. This is usually not a problem because bigger boats usually also have deeper draft and more anchor rode and usually anchor further out than the smaller ones. But not always.


2. Remember when you think about who is "responsible" for resolving a situation like this, just like in the case of collision avoidance, it is NEVER the sole responsibility of any one vessel. Yes, I agree that it is the PRIMARY responsibility, of the vessel coming in later, to anchor in a way to make it reasonably impossible that the boats will swing into each other. But that doesn't let the first boat off the hook. If the second boat thinks he's anchored ok and not too close, but the first boat thinks it's risky, and if the first boat can't politely persuade the first boat to move, then it's the first boat's OBLIGATION to move himself -- to do whatever is necessary to create a safe situation -- in the skipper's own judgement. That's COLREGS Rule 2 in a nutshell. The phrase "not my problem" never crosses the mind, of a real seaman. It's never "not my problem". You must do whatever is necessary in the circumstances to create safety, and you can't rely on others doing, what you think is necessary.


As we've seen -- different skippers may have very different perceptions about what is a safe distance when anchoring. You cannot expect everyone to have the same perception that you do. If you judge the situation to be unsafe, and a polite request to the skipper coming in later does not yield results, then you must move yourself. If it's the other way around, and you feel sure that it's safe, and that the other skipper is just wrong that there is much risk -- like the OP's situation -- then you have a choice of moving anyway to avoid a conflict (what I would normally do), or standing your ground and forcing the other skipper to decide whether to move himself. If you choose the latter course of action, you had better be damned sure that you're right. I've done it, but only on very rare occasions.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I believe he said that 40ft was the closest they got on opposite swings.. not that they were laying 40ft apart.. if your familiar with anchoring you'll know that gives you a pretty safe radius.

The closest separation (he observed) is the critical distance we are considering here and 40' is not adequate, especially with a squall approaching.

[sailcrazy]

After 3+years in the Medd, and now 2 seasons in the Caribb, I absolutely agree that first in gets priority, and 2nd in needs to "give way" if it's too close. Charter boats and others have crews of unknown experience, and no responsibility....it's a rented boat and they will give it back in a week. I've been 1st in, and then stood anchor watch through the night to later arrivals multiple times, and in some cases we elected to move. challenges about ..."who's your insurance company"...fall on deaf ears-it's party time for them! Rude, inconsiderate, and "I'm here, I don't give a damm about you" come to mind. The later arrival SHOULD move, but usually are to concerned with partying! It's call self preservation, and I want to save my boat. Colregs be dammed-40' is way to close...unless you're tied to a VERY strong mooring ball....IMHO.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by liveaboard60

One thing I do not see how it plays any part is the size of the two boats..

respectfully flk k

It shouldn't but often the captain of the larger boat feels empowered by the size of his boat. A form of compensation for other shortcomings I would guess.

[SVTwilight]

Under the described conditions it certainly sounds like you were unnecessarily close. 40' is too close in boisterous conditions. Some gusts or current in the right combination could have easily led to the dreaded crunching sound. You would have done well to have politely acted otherwise in deference to their request, and he was right to move to preserve his vessel and his good night's sleep.

In any case, if anchoring next to a vessel already on the hook and they ask you to move for safety reasons, the right thing to do is to move.

[kmacdonald]

^ I agree.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Peculiar

Agree 100%.

I also agree. 40' is too close in any weather & simply inconsiderate. Clearly you could have moved as they were able to.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

The closest separation (he observed) is the critical distance we are considering here and 40' is not adequate, especially with a squall approaching.

Horse's for course's.. for me 40ft clearance at maximum of both boats with opposing swing is fine.. especially if as the OP says they were abeam when head to wind.
As for one dragging onto the other.. highly unlikely..
But hey.. what do I know..

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Horse's for course's.. for me 40ft clearance at maximum of both boats with opposing swing is fine.. especially if as the OP says they were abeam when head to wind.
As for one dragging onto the other.. highly unlikely..
But hey.. what do I know..

If they are 40' apart when laying at anchor then their rodes can cross paths & the boats can conceivably hit each other. Also, if you start dragging in a squall you can travel 40' very quickly.

[buzzstar]

The short answer is, there ain't no f***ing etiquette to be found no where when it comes to anchoring in a safe and/or crowded anchorage. The guy with the biggest boat or the one with willing to cause/accept the most damage wins. Subject to the previous sentence, the "rule" is and always has been the first arrival has the place he/she wants, the second arrival has his/her choice, but should not encroach on the first, the third arrival must not encroach on the first or second, etc. BUT if the anchorage is really good and safe, someone will install moorings and charge for the privilege of being there. Please do not take this post with utter seriousness, but unfortunately there is truth in them that hills.

[CarinaPDX]

I realize that your question was about etiquette, but I would be more concerned about your anchoring technique. With squalls in the area anything less than a solid 6:1 scope (including adding the bow to water distance), and preferably more, is unnecessarily risky. If depth (25') plus height (say 5') was 30', then 180' would be the minimum I would want in that situation. If you had paid out more chain you would have come to rest aft of, and offset to, the other yacht; in that case swinging would not have caused a hit, although the rodes might have touched in extremis. I see it as your responsibility to avoid a situation where your boat is at risk of swinging into a boat that was anchored earlier. If letting out more chain were not possible then I think you should have moved for your own safety.

Something that bothers me is that you said you anchored "as far away as possible, to the very end of the bay" with 140' of chain out. If that is the case then your anchor was either beside of, or close ahead and beside of, the other boat's anchor, and necessarily very close to his. This is a very poor location. It also means that he likely also had a short scope. If I have to anchor close to other boats I always try to drop the hook well aft (or forward) of my estimated position of the other anchor (relative to the wind) and pay out chain until I am well aft of the other boat, making it very difficult to collide short of a major change in wind direction.

It is, of course, impossible for us here to accurately judge how well you located your boat relative to the other boat, and critically your anchor relative to his likely set.

It is telling that the other boat thought it safer to move than stay where he was. If I were in his position, and a boat of your size was swinging so close to Carina in squally conditions, I would have been upset too, even in a small anchorage. And if I had to move to keep Carina safe I would certainly not be your best friend. And since it appears that in this case the other boat road out the blow 250' feet away, I have to ask why you didn't move there first.

In any event, I assume your boat has an electric (or even hydraulic) windlass, so moving isn't that difficult. Had you done so when your neighbor first complained I suspect it would have been easier than what he ultimately went through.

Tentatively I conclude that you should have moved, or at least anchored differently first. The other skipper's comments should have helped you to come to that conclusion. It seems to me that you were more stubborn than right.

Tomorrow's another day. Live and learn.

Greg

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

If they are 40' apart when laying at anchor then their rodes can cross paths & the boats can conceivably hit each other. Also, if you start dragging in a squall you can travel 40' very quickly.

They were not 40ft apart when laying head to wind.. that's the point.. go back and read the OP.. they were abeam each other when head to wind.. only 40ft apart at the respective extremes of port and starboard swings
Its a physical impossibility for their rodes to cross..

[TheThunderbird]

I read all thoroughly.

It appears to be no "right' to anyone. No priority, shared responsibility.

Etiquette calls for not disturbing others, IF possible.

I made my best to stay apart, dropping almost onto a buoy line.

The Swinging positioned the 2 boats between a minimum of 40' and a max of 100+' apart. I checked it carefully.

I made a judgement of preferring to watch out, other than dropping anchor elsewhere on a deeper anchorage, or too close to the breakwater on leeward.

Sure, others may prefer to stay alone and can vent themselves.
Sure, i may have the right to judge my position comfortable, thereby assuming the necessary consequences in a bad case scenario.

Again, another boat positioned itself in that very spot soon after.
And, in case of dragging, the was no risk of contact
Paying out more chain would have increased my swing radius, at a danger

No one asked why the first boat didn't pay out more chain, the simplest solution of all (they being on leeward)

Thanks

PS the shoreline develops N-S
Wind was WNW. Rode was 30 to 60 degrees off the line perpendicular to the coast. It made us closer, at times, and asynchronously

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

I reaad al thoroughly.

No one asked why the first boat didn't pay out more chain, the simplest solution of all (they being on leeward)

Thanks

Maybe because you never mentioned that they were to leeward.

But asking why would be pointless, as we weren't there. Clearly the boat in question didn't think that a viable solution, and he was there.

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by boatman61

They were not 40ft apart when laying head to wind.. that's the point.. go back and read the OP.. they were abeam each other when head to wind.. only 40ft apart at the respective extremes of port and starboard swings
Its a physical impossibility for their rodes to cross..

Many thanks, Boatman61