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Old 21-10-2013, 20:13   #121
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Originally Posted by Mantus Anchors View Post
Ok let me make this perfectly CLEAR
There this is no conspiracy!!!!
We clearly stated that our shanks are made of Mild Steel.. on our website, that information was there from the beginning.

Currently,we are in the process of changing our shank material - manufacturing must be completed and inspections passed before anything can be sold or even advertised - probably not until next month.

We continuously looks at ways to improve, innovate & meet market demands.

We could not possibly advertise that we have new material for our shanks, since we do not, we have mild steel shanks and when the new material is available our website will be updated appropriately.

We have always been very transparent with Jonathan, forum members and any potential customer. There has NEVER been any misinformation, and we are always are available to answer questions by phone, email or in this forum. In fact we have disclosed information here about the material transition that we have not even gone public with yet AND offered to replace any older version for people with concerns.
I don't think anyone accused you of being involved in a conspiracy; I just think there were some questions about what specifications your metallurgy met. I understand you don't think that shank strength is important, but that you are changing to stronger steel. It sounded like you had made that change, but now have clarified that you haven't, so all who buy your product will be agreeable to your position that mild steel is fine for anchor shanks until you change to stronger materials, which aren't needed, since mild steel is fine. Perfectly clear.

And you needn't worry about any confusion potential customers may have, your advertising on the site will help clarify your message.
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Old 21-10-2013, 20:22   #122
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

I rest my case... I think all the information for a customer to make an informed decision is available.
Good night, Greg
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Old 21-10-2013, 20:35   #123
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Wasn't looking to beat you up as I like your position. Just not transparent and inconsistent. So rest on which testimony? Your shanks are mild steel but may be upgraded. Or the shank is mild steel but pm me and ill quietly tell you something that no one else should hear.
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Old 21-10-2013, 23:30   #124
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To answer a minor comment, I post on this and other forum as a private individual. If you want journalistic professionalism then I expect to be paid and CF expect me to become a 'commercial' member and pay dues. Mantus have been well aware that I have been 'twitchy' of their shank - its been published (and anyone in whatever industry has a google watch on their industry - the internet misses nothing). If Mantus have anything to say they can PM me, email me - even send me an old fashioned letter.

However even if I had known that the long awaited Hi Tensile shanks were on the horizon it does not bring the strength of the Mantus shank anywhere near close to the strength of almost every other branded anchor - so my views remain the same and my views of the fate of the historic customer base remain the same.

What prompted my concerns was the video suggesting that the shank of the Mantus could be removed. I tried it, Mantuis with roll bar removed, from our catamaran in Port Stephens, East Coast Australia, about five months ago and long before the video was released. It simply does not work. If the anchor lands on its back, very possible if you drop with a windlass and the yacht is drifting back, it will drag forever - it simply is not self righting, the shank section above the crown (the short part of the 'L' section, is simply too short. If you do get it to set and simulate a tide change and it lands on its back - it does not reset. If you engine fails and you are drifting toward rocks you want an anchor that sets. Yes, sets (full stop) - no discussion about the merits of the video - you want something on which you can rely.

The video was not to encourage people to remove the roll bar - then what precisely was it for? It was well made at considerable expense - why illustrate something that was not recommended. Excuse me if a robust blunt comment might not be in order.

Why did I try roll bar removal/, because I could - but because I also have this idea the roll bar inhibits setting (which is correct and is something Greg has said). Remove the roll bar and if you can induce the anchor to set it will set more deeply. So build a concave anchor that sets each time and every time without a roll bar and you will have a deeper setting anchor (though there might be other problems - which do not concern this debate - but if you pay me I'll write an article for CF!)

The combination of the weak shank (which many oddly, suggest they can live with - as the product is cheap) is one thing - having videos suggesting the shank can be removed was beyond the Pale.

[MODERATOR EDIT: offensive, not relevant and rude.]

I'm sorry you do not like robust debate, I am also sorry you might not like bad news. So those that are offended, maybe stop reading my posts?

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Old 22-10-2013, 03:20   #125
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Error correction, definitely unprofessional

The third para and the third last para, of the post above, I suggest that the shank can be removed - I meant the roll bar can be removed.

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Old 22-10-2013, 03:50   #126
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Jonjo, all a bit academic for many on CF though isn't it since there isn't a UK importer and I am not importing an anchor from another country. It could be the best thing since sliced bread, but I want to see anchors in the flesh before I buy. Mantus are not alone here the Excel from Anchor right is another example.

So guess I will stick to my Delta which strangely enough is cost effective and works

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Old 22-10-2013, 04:36   #127
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Pete 7,

Its a problem of an international forum.

I'm involved as I write very occasionally for American or UK magazines and cannot be parochial. But people do buy sight unseen, Spade have sent them specially to Sydney for a locally built Buizen - though their reputation is international. But here, I have never seen a genuine Danforth for sale (but they are easily available in Japan) - so not easy to predict.

But think of the thread in the abstract - just because the product is not available today does not mean that it might not be available soon - Rocna was everywhere 3 or 4 years ago. Is this (or as you mention 2 products - are these) the sort of product you want in the UK?

But I confess, if its products on a thread of which I know nothing and have little passion (for whatever reason) - I simply do not get involved.

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Old 22-10-2013, 05:07   #128
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

John,

You do come across strident and a bit single minded.

I'm switching to the Mantus because I've had some issues anchoring where the Mantus, with its large cross section would be an advantage.

I bought the Mantus because it represented good VALUE and addressed the issue. Changing a word from "VALUE" to "CHEAP" is a misrepresentation of my intent and pejorative.

In doing so I feel you changed my words and intent. It may have been unintentional, but it rankles.
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Old 22-10-2013, 07:16   #129
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

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Old 22-10-2013, 07:20   #130
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Until now I have avoided wading into the debate on this thread because it seems to me that every thread on anchors over the last couple of years seems to have degenerated into a discussion about shank strength.

Every year I see many boats drag. I have never seen, or even heard of a boat dragging because an anchor bent or broke during use (with the exception of the Spade where the owner forgot to bolt the shank to the fluke ). Boats dragging because of bent/broken swivels, shackles, chain, even pulled out cleats yes, but bent/broken anchors never. I am by not saying this is impossible, but the odds must be exceptionally low. Most bent anchors occur upon retrieval.

99.99% (OK I made that statistic up but it gives the right idea) drag because the anchor does not hold. Most of the rest of the .01%, because the swivel broke or the shackle came undone.

I even rescued one boat because they forgot to drop the anchor and "dragged"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonJo View Post
However even if I had known that the long awaited Hi Tensile shanks were on the horizon it does not bring the strength of the Mantus shank anywhere near close to the strength of almost every other branded anchor - so my views remain the same and my views of the fate of the historic customer base remain the same.
I cannot agree with this statement. You believe A514 steel Mantus shank is weaker than Anchor Right's Super Sarca or Plastimo's Kobra 2 ? These are only two examples of popular cruising anchors with mild steel shanks. What about the aluminium Spade? An anchor that you use on your own boat. This must have the weakest shank on any anchor. They often bend during the anchor tests.

Let's have an occasional discussion about anchor shank strength, but there are many more important details such as holding and setting ability that should be able to be addressed without this one topic dominating all discussion.

Singling out one manufacturer to attack on this issue is not appropriate, especially when they are already switching to the strongest (or equal strongest) steel that is used by any manufacturer. I have seen bent CQRs (in fact I personally own a bent one!) and bent Manson Supremes, so yes any anchor can bend, but Mantus have the best warranty should the worst happen. They don't seem an appropriate target for this campaign.
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Old 22-10-2013, 07:32   #131
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

From what I can tell in scanning this thread, JonJo, who I am quite sure has more objective testing of anchors under his belt than anyone here, has some criticisms of a new anchor and how it is being promoted. First, he notes that the shank is made out of the weakest butter steel available, second, that the manufacturer has been a bit hard to pin down on when and why the mild steel shank would be replaced, third, the manufacturer has argued that the very idea of a bent anchor shank is absurd, and fourth, the manufacturer seems to be recommending removal of the hoop if it gets in your way. For his trouble, those with an economic interest in the conversation have accused him of being rude, unprofessional or conspiracy minded.

Well, anchor shanks do bend, and this anchor won't reset in a midnight wind shift if the hoop is removed. Whether the fact that it is cheap, or to those who have bought one, an outstanding value compensates for these flaws is in the eye of the beholder. I recall the Yugo was also either cheap or an outstanding value (depending on whether you owned one, I guess), so perhaps we should see the Mantus is the Yugo of anchors. After all the Yugo did have an outstanding safety record, since it was so hard to get into trouble from behind a tow truck.

Once the shank of the Mantus is actually, as opposed to theoretically replaced with appropriate steel, and if the idea that the hoop can be removed without penalty is no longer promoted by the manufacturer, then I am sure JonJo's criticisms will be removed since I doubt he has a dog in this fight one way or another.
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Old 22-10-2013, 07:52   #132
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I cannot agree with this statement. You believe A514 steel Mantus shank is weaker than Anchor Right's Super Sarca or Plastimo's Kobra 2 ? These are only two examples of popular cruising anchors with mild steel shanks. What about the aluminium Spade? An anchor that you use on your own boat. This must have the weakest shanks on any anchor. They often bend during the anchor tests.

Let's have an occasional discussion about anchor shank strength, but there are many more important details such as holding and setting ability that should be able to be addressed without this one topic dominating all discussion.

Singling out one manufacturer to attack on this issue is not appropriate, especially when they are already switching to the strongest (or equal strongest) steel that is used by any manufacturer. I have seen bent CQRs (in fact I personally own a bent one!) and bent Manson Supremes so yes any anchor can bend, but Mantus have the best warranty should the worst happen. They don't seem an appropriate target for this campaign you are waging.
The Mantus doesn't have A514 steel, which is equivalent to Bisalloy 80. It has A36 mild steel, which is 1/3 as strong. There is a change pending, but existing customers and those buying the Mantus until then will not have an A514 shank. (One question - if shank steel is unimportant, why change the steel in the shank at all?) The reason the mild steel on the Mantus shank matters is because if they are going to bend shanks bend on side loading. Increase the surface area of the flukes and the resistance to side movement is increased, which also increases the risk of bending. A large fluke area is supposed to be one of the advantages of the Mantus, along with its concave fluke design, which design also increases resistance to pivoting in the sea bed during a wind shift. As such, the Mantus, IMO, is far more likely to deform than any other anchor I can think of, and certainly more than one touted as the best ever. Comparing the Mantus to a Kobra 2 (also cheap, er, high value) or a Super Sarca is a false comparison since these anchors have smaller overall fluke area that are convex, reducing the need for high tensile steel in the shank. In the case of the Sarca, the manufacturer has quite a lot of experience in designing and building anchors, so I would assume knows what steel can be used with that design and what not. I have less confidence in a manufacturer that posts a video recommending removal of a key design feature of his anchor that allows it to perform as an anchor at all.

Whether Mantus is a 'target' or not is a legitimate question. Seems to me all JonJo is doing is pointing out the consequences of the current Mantus design and recommendations for use. One would think that such information would be encouraged, whether one accepts the analysis or not.
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Old 22-10-2013, 07:55   #133
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Quote:
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(with the exception of the Spade where the owner forgot to bolt the shank to the fluke ).
Actually, the Spade stays together quite well without the bolt - it is primarily a mechanical lock keeping the shank attached to the fluke - not the bolt. It turned out that the boat you mention actually put his Spade together backwards! He thought it should be plow-shaped and not concave. That is why he dragged into the rocks.

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Old 22-10-2013, 08:04   #134
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

Mantus without the Hoop:
Not everyone, is a cruiser living on the hook....
Some, go for a day sail, Some go fishing... the hoop makes the anchor bulky. Mantus can certainly be used without the hoop in these applications, bc it will set 99.9% of the time regardless how you throw it and that was the point of the video...
I personally have cruised on the Mantus Prototype See photo attached for 2 years and since have used without the hoop bc it is my preference, to do so
never dragged and never failed a set
We will say more on this later...
Now I believe we bring the best option to the cruiser. An anchor that has modular design, so you can bring spare parts, stow flat and I believe offers the best setting ability of anything else on the market...
Also with a lifetime warranty... sounds like a BMW to me
In fact most everyone that owns a Mantus, stays with the Mantus. why?
bc it works so darn well. This is why this thread was started.... btw
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Old 22-10-2013, 08:10   #135
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Re: It's True! The Mantus 65-lb. hooks first time, everytime.

This has been an interesting thread and quite informative. I have had a chance to get a better look at the Mantus anchor through these postings.

I started with a Rocna which fit well on my bow roller and returned it after the discovery of the weak steel and deceptions. Moving to a Manson with strong steel and a good reputation that does not fit in my roller quite so nicely.

Now I'm looking at replacing the Manson with a Mantus. Not today but when the new shanks come into production.

Mantus has a few advantages for cruisers who are or will be in ouut of the way places. As has been noted shanks have been bent. It has been said that no boat has been lost due to a bent shank (as of yet) but not stated is that the anchor is no longer useful (YMMV) with a bent shank. SO having a spare shank of high strength steel would be a useful feature. Also, with a removable roll bar a spare could be carried. Bend the roll bar and replace it. Have Mantus send a replacement.

Mantus anchors as a company has no obligation to disclose anything about its products or engineering or production plans. Especially to folks here on CF. Mantus may choose to do so for marketing or other reasons. I just think that Badgering Greg is not nice. And that Greg has been a good sport about it.
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