easy way to pull up well set anchor

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by team karst

I am a SCADA, IoT, remote sense, and now LoRa kinda guy professionally. But I am way behind on the boat. Dont even have a read on either prime mover temperature, and that is very basic. [emoji30]

Lets do a magnetic mounted temperature lora mesh to Bluetooth system

Yup, temperature monitoring would be useful. Current monitoring is not the only determining factor for motor loading. You might safely draw say 30 amps at 10 degrees Celsius, ambient but at 26 degrees, you might cook the motor. Motor temperature and current draw can be used as a basis for setting clutch tension.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

It would be useful to have an amp meter connected to the windlass motor, and know its maximum rated current. This could help to save the motor. Running it at or near its load limit for extended times could cause burn out, if not immediate, could shorten its life over repeated heavy loading. This is more critical in hot weather. Of course the breaker will trip upon overload, but monitoring load with an amp meter enables you to know when to give the motor a cool down break.

Or go down below and put your hand on your windlass motor while having someone else use it to pull in the chain and take note of whether the motor seems to start feeling very warm. Then base further use of your windlass on what you learn. I used to worry about them getting too warm so I did that with both my windlass and my bow thruster and was pleasantly surprised to learn that they both stay cooler than I had been worrying they would be.

If there’s any significant wind or current I always motor forward while pulling in the chain until directly over the anchor, usually with many pauses to wash mud off the chain, so the windlass doesn’t have to work hard at all during that phase. Then, even if I were to try to use the windlass to break out a deeply embedded anchor, it quickly becomes obvious whether some technique other than just windlass brute strength will be needed so this high load phase wouldn’t last long. Once the anchor is free it’s usually only 20 or 30 feet of chain, and while the weight of the chain plus the anchor is significant, if the windlass is properly sized, it shouldn’t come close to overheating the motor.

[team karst]

Some windlass, like my cayman, have a aluminum housing built around the motor, no doubt steel. This likely offers enough thermal insulation to defeat any hope for short term overheating detection by hand. The real fix for this type of problem, is an electronic energy gauge, integrating power in with time, tossing in a ambient temperature into the equation.
Or, hope that the manufacturer builds in a winding thermal cutout,

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Or go down below and put your hand on your windlass motor while having someone else use it to pull in the chain and take note of whether the motor seems to start feeling very warm. Then base further use of your windlass on what you learn. I used to worry about them getting too warm so I did that with both my windlass and my bow thruster and was pleasantly surprised to learn that they both stay cooler than I had been worrying they would be.

If there’s any significant wind or current I always motor forward while pulling in the chain until directly over the anchor, usually with many pauses to wash mud off the chain, so the windlass doesn’t have to work hard at all during that phase. Then, even if I were to try to use the windlass to break out a deeply embedded anchor, it quickly becomes obvious whether some technique other than just windlass brute strength will be needed so this high load phase wouldn’t last long. Once the anchor is free it’s usually only 20 or 30 feet of chain, and while the weight of the chain plus the anchor is significant, if the windlass is properly sized, it shouldn’t come close to overheating the motor.

Temperature sensing by hand is a relative indication, but it is not precise, and according to layout of the system it may not be practical for continuous monitoring. Probably, the best indication is the current at the specified ambient temperature. An IR temperature gun could give a precise outer temperature indication. To equate outer temperature to maximum allowed loading, the temperature vs. current curves of the motor would need to be consulted. This gets into a complex analysis though. Just knowing the maximum allowed current of the motor at a few ambient temperatures, and having an amp meter connected would be the simplest arrangement. How many people would go to the effort of fitting an amp meter though? And even fewer would fit electronic temperature sensing. Expensive motor failure could be avoided with a simple amp meter though, so worth the effort. Odds are that everyone will face this problem of a stuck anchor and possible windlass motor overload from time to time.

[team karst]

My last boat had a dc ammeter, and it was fun to watch it during deep water anchor retrievals. Ocean swells of course causing the amp variations.

Come to think of it; i had installed a 75A thermal breaker; and sometimes it tripped with anchor and 90’ of chain hanging free. So the motor did have effective protection.

[jtsailjt]

Team karst, my ammeter measures net amps flowing into and out of house bank so with the engine running and adequate RPM’s, even with a substantial load, it usually reads a positive number. Do you have an ammeter that measures out flowing amps from your battery without accounting for the amps coming from the alternator? Or do you really raise your anchor during deep water retrievals, and pull your boat up to over the anchor using your windlass without your engine running so you can see how many amps your windlass is drawing? What useful info did you glean from that number? Did you know that putting a heavy load on batteries will temporarily decrease the voltage, requiring more current, increasing stress on your windlass motor? It’s much better to have your engine running and RPMs high enough so your alternator is putting out enough to at least keep battery voltage from falling during heavy loads such as things like windlasses and bow thrusters draw.

I’ve never seen a temperature vs current curve for any of my windlasses and I’ve never felt like I needed to see one but I have seen that, just like most other electric devices, they all have a CB size recommendation. If you have enough crew onboard to assign someone to observe the additional ammeter (unless you never run your engine while raising anchor) that you added just for your windlass, yes you could learn how many amps your windlass is drawing but what useful information does that precise number really tell you? How many amps are too many for a short time or for 10 seconds or for 3 minutes? Why not just follow the windlass manufacturers CB size recommendation, and then avoid using the windlass to pull the boat forward into a headwind or current, letting it rest periodically during retrieval? That’s what I’ve done and I’ve never had to replace a windlass motor since I bought my first boat boat that was equipped with one over 25 years ago.

[team karst]

Most marine DC panels that have a DC ammeter, will, in fact, show current delivered to all loads. They start at zero, and go to the panel rating.
The 'battery monitor' systems, that count Coulombs in and out, show battery current, not appliance load current. Same for the ammeters commonly used as ammeters on the engine panel. Unless you fly old Pipers, and you will be facing an Alternator current meter....

Why is any of this useful? For sizing the breaker for one. And, picking its trip curve. You will not want a fast acting magnetic breaker. You will want a thermal breaker. Similar to the heater based overload contactors for industrial motors.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Dieseldude

It would be useful to have an amp meter connected to the windlass motor, and know its maximum rated current. This could help to save the motor.

How about a temperature sensor?

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A windlass, manual or powered, is a very useful item for short handed cruisers, and I was replying to Sean's inference that windlass failure was a looming issue for every boat so equipped.

I met so many cruisers and many things I never used failed for them. Often engines, water makers, stainless rigging swages, windlass, refrigerator and even scuba compressors. There are some cruisers who never have failures as they understand how to prevent them how not to break their stuff etc. This doesnt mean most people don't break things.

Sean's outlook (and yours for that matter) is predicated upon small, light boats and not the larger and heavier boats that are the common vessels for cruisers.

Completely agree, but #1 post isn't really specific in dealing without a windlass. Using the windlass to break a really stuck anchor is not always viable just as pulling really hard on it isn't either.

So the possibility remains of using a second anchor. Then use the windlass to pull the first one vertical and snug. Then a sheet winch (or even manual pulling depending on boat size) to the second anchor. The force to the second anchor is a fraction, say 1/6th or 1/8th of the force it applies to the vertical anchor depending, varying as it changes, but the point is, it gives leverage. The further out the second anchor is, and more snug the first anchor, the more leverage it will provide.

I had an anchor set really deep in the bottom as the result of Hurricane Marty. I tried everything I could think off. When the tide rose, the bow went down and it did not change with time. After two days of futility, I hired a panga. We put a big shackle around my chain, and slid it all the way down. With the panga pulling in the opposite direction to my boat, it moved the shackle all the way down the chain, and also down the anchor shank. We continued to pull and had the anchor up in fifteen minutes!

I would suggest winching a second anchor may potentially eliminate needing to "hire a panga"

[boatpoker]

Been anchoring for 8 months at a time for about 30yrs. and thousands of anchor retrievals with a DC windlass.
I never knew it was so complicated

[ColIn Ferguson]

My first 26 ft boat had no windlass. I was young and fit but single handed it was a ball ache to retrieve the anchor in 25knots. So on my second boat (31ft First) I fitted a manual lofrens in the chain locker with a 4 ft steel bar lever. It is brilliant and can deliver huge amounts of power.
My third boat is a Beneteau 423 with a Rocna 20 and 100m of 10mm chain. 10mm chain weighs 2.2kg per metre so even anchored in 10m you are lifting 42kg plus the break out force once you have got up to the anchor point. On a drop in deep water there is no possibility of pulling it up by hand and a good windlass is essential.
I do however always worry about windlass failure as the manual option on the Quick windlass is limited. I think using the primary winches would work pulling up 10m at a time but things could go wrong especially in a blow.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Completely agree, but #1 post isn't really specific in dealing without a windlass. Using the windlass to break a really stuck anchor is not always viable just as pulling really hard on it isn't either.

So the possibility remains of using a second anchor. Then use the windlass to pull the first one vertical and snug. Then a sheet winch (or even manual pulling depending on boat size) to the second anchor. The force to the second anchor is a fraction, say 1/6th or 1/8th of the force it applies to the vertical anchor depending, varying as it changes, but the point is, it gives leverage. The further out the second anchor is, and more snug the first anchor, the more leverage it will provide.

I agree, although having more tools and options to work with never hurts. In my mind, given a windlass with an appropriately placed warping drum, I'd use it for that second anchor method. Snub the rode on the first anchor to allow releasing the windlass clutch, then use the drum to pull on the second one. A sheet winch would work just as well, but if you're doing this all from the bow, the windlass is just in a more convenient location.

[jtsailjt]

Ive tried to visualize it but just don’t get how using a second anchor gains any advantage at all when trying to retrieve a stuck anchor unless you lack either an engine or a conveniently oriented breeze. Usually, pulling straight up is the best way to pull a deeply buried anchor out of the muck, and you don’t need a second anchor to position yourself directly over your stuck anchor. If pulling straight up doesn’t work and there’s a need to pull the stuck anchor in the opposite direction from which it was set, our best option is to use the engine or sails, either of which are capable of generating much more force than any humans [emoji123] or any windlass found on a typical cruising boat. So, the only time I can see this method being useful is when an anchor is stuck in such a way that pulling straight up doesn’t work on a calm day or with the wind blowing from the wrong direction on a boat with no engine. That’s a pretty special case since most of us have an engine or at least a dinghy with an engine that can help our many ton vessel develop several tons of inertia, and it’s unusual for pulling straight up to not release a stuck anchor. Even the OP, who has no engine and relies on sculling claims he can get his boat moving at 2 knots and if his boat weighs at least a few tons, the energy it would impart to his anchor ride far exceeds any static force his arms can impart. So what am I missing that makes this be a useful technique for most cruisers?

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Ive tried to visualize it but just don’t get how using a second anchor gains any advantage at all when trying to retrieve a stuck anchor unless you lack either an engine or a conveniently oriented breeze. Usually, pulling straight up is the best way to pull a deeply buried anchor out of the muck, and you don’t need a second anchor to position yourself directly over your stuck anchor. If pulling straight up doesn’t work and there’s a need to pull the stuck anchor in the opposite direction from which it was set, our best option is to use the engine or sails, either of which are capable of generating much more force than any humans [emoji123] or any windlass found on a typical cruising boat. So, the only time I can see this method being useful is when an anchor is stuck in such a way that pulling straight up doesn’t work on a calm day or with the wind blowing from the wrong direction on a boat with no engine. That’s a pretty special case since most of us have an engine or at least a dinghy with an engine that can help our many ton vessel develop several tons of inertia, and it’s unusual for pulling straight up to not release a stuck anchor. Even the OP, who has no engine and relies on sculling claims he can get his boat moving at 2 knots and if his boat weighs at least a few tons, the energy it would impart to his anchor ride far exceeds any static force his arms can impart. So what am I missing that makes this be a useful technique for most cruisers?

Agree. I had not understood any advantage of using a second anchor. Explanation for this would need to be accompanied by drawings for method(s) to be understandable. It seems like one would be tossing in the potential for more complications. Just get two anchor cables twisted together if heading control is lost. Yes, good control should be maintained, but bad stuff can happen. Engine can fail, helmsman can become distracted, current and wind can change quickly.



Some means to take advantage of the inertia of the vessel as suggested seems like the best plan. How many small vessels are equipped with a second anchor and windlass anyway? Handling a second anchor by hand does not seem like an easy task. A bit of sail or engine power aptly applied to several tons of vessel mass would far exceed the strongest muscle power or or even electric winch torque.



If the direction in which flukes are dug in can be ascertained, pulling in the opposite direction should eventually flip them clear. A straight up pull when rode is tightened to vertical should have same effect. The boat's own buoyancy assisted by any swell, wave action, or a rising tide would provide quite a powerful lift effect. Just consider the force it would take to raise the boat by the bow when she is sitting on dry land. After rode is made vertical, trimming to the stern by movement of any material or crew aft ward could free up buoyancy to the bow providing some lift against the anchor. Best to tie off the cable to a sampson post or well secured bit or cleat to keep strain off windlass.



Maneuvering toward the anchor by engine power while retrieving cable prevents the anchor from further digging in. This also lightens load on the windlass motor.

[team karst]

I think its a mechanical advantage thing. Pulling at an angle creates more force on the stuck anchor. For non-engined boats i guess. But then, u need a dink to set out #2. But u might end up with 2 stuck anchors🤯

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by team karst

I think its a mechanical advantage thing. Pulling at an angle creates more force on the stuck anchor. For non-engined boats i guess. But then, u need a dink to set out #2. But u might end up with 2 stuck anchors🤯

Pulling at an angle does not create any more force, it just changes the direction of whatever force you can generate comes from.