Do We Have Anchoring All Wrong?

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I also think commercial vessels always have an overnight anchor watch and never leave boats unattended at anchor.

Nonsense! As one who has worked in the fishing industry in British Columbia (very much the same as Alaska) I can tell you that it would be very rare for a boat with one, two, or three crew members (90% of commercial fishboats) to stand anchor watch. Those guys, during fishing openings, work to physical exhaustion, then collapse in their bunks until it is time to get back on deck again. They will go many days without adequate sleep - and lose precious sleep time by standing an anchor watch? Not a chance!


However, most of them have been on boats most of their lives and are very sensitive to changes in the boat behavior - even while asleep. So if the anchor drags, they will very likely sense it and be up in an instant. Some of us are the same but many do not yet have sufficient experience overnighting on their boats to be so well attuned.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Did you ever consider that these guys often think they know better because they are "working" and rarely explore new ideas themselves? What they are doing is probably not even optimal for their own use let alone cruising.

Right on! They do it because it has always worked for them and others in their field. A HUGE percentage of professionals in most fields are EXTREMELY conservative - including doctors, construction workers, truck drivers, and others.


When you depend on your boat for your livelihood and you have a system that works, you don't risk breakdowns and downtime trying something new - at least most don't.


Also, most of these guys are working for subsistence livings. Many of them have old boats (they can't afford newer ones) and old gear. They don't have a lot of money to throw around experimenting.

[Dsanduril]

Are cruisers really any different? There's definitely a herd mentality with all things cruiser. Witness, as an example, the proliferation of boats in SP anchorages mentioned by Soggy Paws, and, at the same time, the emptiness of anchorages that are equally as well protected but not mentioned in the same cruising guide(s).

Or look at rigging, there's a huge amount of resistance to UHMWPE ("it's not ready") or LiFePO4 batteries ("too complicated") even though the edge proponents can demonstrate many ways in which these are superior for cruisers (and yes, that is a gross over-simplification of the arguments on both side of those issues - it just points out two issues where the entrenched cruising community is somewhat vociferous about not adopting something new).

As noted, the fisherfolk have almost universally adopted UHMWPE over wire rope all in the last 20? years. That's not your daddy's rope. Sure, it performs the same function, but it is a different material, and its use is so accepted that wire has gone by the wayside on most boats. Pretty much the same things could be said about CQR anchors in our world.

You said it yourself Scorpius:

Originally Posted by Scorpius

...you have a system that works...

If their system works then why aren't we using the same system? Does it not actually work? On what evidence? Does it work, but not as effectively or reliably? On what evidence? Having people say "they're just doing things because that's the way they've done things" isn't evidence. Evidence is the number of boats using various anchoring setups that drag/don't stay anchored as desired.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

As noted, the fisherfolk have almost universally adopted UHMWPE over wire rope all in the last 20? years. That's not your daddy's rope. Sure, it performs the same function, but it is a different material, and its use is so accepted that wire has gone by the wayside on most boats. Pretty much the same things could be said about CQR anchors in our world.

You said it yourself Scorpius:

If their system works then why aren't we using the same system? Does it not actually work? On what evidence? Does it work, but not as effectively or reliably? On what evidence? Having people say "they're just doing things because that's the way they've done things" isn't evidence. Evidence is the number of boats using various anchoring setups that drag/don't stay anchored as desired.

I think the number of boats using a particular system is "evidence" that their operators are happy with it; not that it is necessarily the best system.

Unlike the vast majority of sailboats I have hydraulics on Scorpius, including a hydraulic anchor winch, and I'm very glad I do. I find hydraulics VASTLY superior to electrics (except that your engine has to be operable to use them) in torque and reliability. I got that idea from the local fishermen and I'm glad I did. However, I don't have a drum winch (I have a capstan with a chain gypsy under it) and I wish I did. They are far easier and safer to operate. However, as others have pointed out, they are not nearly as versatile - although many have a capstan on the side if you need to pull another line. An appropriate one for Scorpius wouldn't be all that big and some of them are pretty low-profile.

[fxykty]

We have a Lofrans Falkon horizontal windlass, mounted on our catwalk just in front of the main beam, with the anchor locker below it. We have 65m of 1/2” chain. Our anchor locker is too shallow, so we have to hand flake the chain until the last 20 metres, then it can go straight in. In addition, we want to add 100m of 10mm UHMWPE to the chain rather than adding more chain for deeper anchorages. That will be workable but awkward with our windlass as the UHMWPE will not be handled by the gypsy and we’d have to move the rode between the gypsy and warping drum while under at least gravity load of the chain.

A winch drum would eliminate both of those problems.

And if we used it the same way as the windlass (not pulling the boat up to the anchor, etc), then the various negatives mentioned earlier this thread don’t come into play.

If we could mount it in the chain locker I would definitely considering replacing our windlass with a drum winch. We’d have to cut open the cat walk to get the drum in there, but that’s really not too big of an issue. Once the drum is in the anchor locker we could seal it back up as it only needs a service hatch (until of course it needs to be removed, but that would be well into the future hopefully).

We would need an electric motor up to 2kW, basically equivalent to our current windlass motor.

Any down sides?

[Oeanda]

Originally Posted by Scorpius

Nonsense! As one who has worked in the fishing industry in British Columbia (very much the same as Alaska) I can tell you that it would be very rare for a boat with one, two, or three crew members (90% of commercial fishboats) to stand anchor watch. Those guys, during fishing openings, work to physical exhaustion, then collapse in their bunks until it is time to get back on deck again. They will go many days without adequate sleep - and lose precious sleep time by standing an anchor watch? Not a chance!


However, most of them have been on boats most of their lives and are very sensitive to changes in the boat behavior - even while asleep. So if the anchor drags, they will very likely sense it and be up in an instant. Some of us are the same but many do not yet have sufficient experience overnighting on their boats to be so well attuned.

Pretty much what I was thinking too. We rarely anchored anyway- we were always working. When long-lining halibut any distance offshore along the Alaskan line we would often just set some alarms and drift while getting a couple hours of sleep in between work. If we had to dodge gales we would scoot the 15 miles down to anchor behind Langara Island. We were physically worked to the max, sleep was very rare- setting a watch would be completely unthinkable. Mutiny!
But there was generally a boatload of guys pretty well attuned to the situation and I like to think we’d have noticed any drift. Maybe just wishful thinking.

The fisheries I’ve crewed on we were always kind of doing the same runs and anchoring at the same tried and true spots, or whenever possible going back to the dock. Usually the boats pack up, are aware of where the other guys are, and are in radio contact a lot.

I find with a sailboat I’m often exploring new ground and maybe pushing the limits a little more. The boat is usually alone- we feel suitably paranoid.

It’s a good question though, re the anchor and I’ve often wondered that myself because it’s the same thing around here- most of these commercial boats just have little forfjord anchors.

A couple of the cabin cruiser type pleasure boats at the dock have drum winches on them. At least one of the sailboats too, now that I think about it. We considered putting one on. We’d have room for one of the smaller electric ones, but it would look ugly as hell on our boat. Nice to have otherwise though.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

As noted, the fisherfolk have almost universally adopted UHMWPE over wire rope all in the last 20? years. That's not your daddy's rope. Sure, it performs the same function, but it is a different material, and its use is so accepted that wire has gone by the wayside on most boats. Pretty much the same things could be said about CQR anchors in our world.

You need to replace ropes a lot more frequently than anchors.

20 years is a long time for a rope (wire or other material) on a fishing boat.
20 years life for an anchor is nothing.

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

As noted, the fisherfolk have almost universally adopted UHMWPE over wire rope all in the last 20? years..

Dsanduril, et al,

That was not our experience 3 winters ago when we spent the winter in Petersburg in the North Harbor. (do you go to Glo's informal coffee chats w/ the locals in the am in her office?)

We saw no UHMWPE. Almost all the boats we saw were Forfjord anchors on very large chain (like 3/4 to 1") for @ 50-75 ft then shackled eye to eye to wire rope - like 1/2 to 5/8". All wound around the deck drum. A few were shackled to 3/4" nylon, but not many.

We became friends with the folks next to us - still see them in the winter in Bellingham - and got to go in their boat fairly frequently in the early spring. It was @ 40 ft and they needed all the room forward for bunk space - not for an anchor locker. We were fortunate enough to make several friends there (free winter king salmon anyone?) and they invited us onto their boats a few times. All of them had large power supplies (large commercial generators) and substantial hydraulic systems.

I never asked, but I believe that they just go wtih what has worked (Forfjord) in as heavy a selection as they can. They all seemed to have the equipment to manage that easily.

Just my 2c

[Sailing Ohm]

Everywhere is different therefore there are different techniques. But one thing for certain is the more chain you have out the better.

To answer your question For certain Alaskan bottom is very different than a sea grass bed and intermittent coral I have here in Florida. Anchors like my mantus are designed to cut into the sea grass while many others (especially the kind you mentioned) would barley catch even when backed down with 100hp. Anchors can be very very bottom, thus location, specific. The new ‘modern’ anchors are being designed to be as functional in as many different situations as possible. Not just the one location of the fishing grounds.

Not having a snubber or anything is also worrisome as there is plenty of data out there that shows the drastic difference in shock loads when employing a snubber. Most commercial fishing boats are all steel so maybe their cleats are a little more reinforced than most sailing boats these days but still I would rather have 2000lb of shock load vs over 10,000lbs under similar circumstances. That’s a great way to get your bow cleats ripped off (something I’ve seen numerous times even in my short sailing experience).

Another thing to think about is that while fishing commercial boats are usually not in frequented bays, urban areas, or other places us non commercial boaters tend to frequent. With this said it isn’t usually a problem if their anchor drags while out fishing. Now in the bay there shouldn’t be much weather and just the amount of weight from an all chain rode is usually enough to hold a boat under normal conditions. My all chain holds us just in its weight alone in 4-5kt current and ~10mph wind. So while in the bay they aren’t going anywhere their anchors might not even be set and without diving in them to check for sure it’s hard to tell.

[rslifkin]

The point about steel fishing boats brings up something interesting. They're heavy. Which means they're somewhat less affected by gusts and wave surge than most of our lighter boats. So they may have a somewhat reduced need for shock absorption.

[lituya1617]

About Anchor Gear in Alaska. I retired from the fishing business in the early 1990's but I just have to tell you that the post that started this thread was an advertisement for a particular type of anchor. For my many years in the commercial fishing fleet, the most popular anchor was the Danforth by far. All chain rodes were popular and some drum wenches used chain for 20 fathoms or so and then galvanized wire rope (cable) for several hundred feet - bigger boats had more scope. But I used all 3/8" galvanized chain plus an 80# Danforth with a simple capstan mechanically driven, not hydraulic, on my 38' troller. On my 43' pot fishing boat, I used all 3/8' chain and a 100# Danforth which I hauled by hand. It was seldom difficult to haul out the hook because anchoring in over 15 fathoms never happened and shallow anchorages were the norm for my way of fishing. Two things about hauling chain by hand: it is a great workout made easy by positioning over the anchor and there is absolutely no expensive equipment to break down or malfunction. On one occasion when I fouled a 2-1/2" wire cable and had to lift it to the surface to free the anchor, I rigged a lifting line from the hydraulic pot puller to lift the anchor. Easy to do and the only time I could not haul the anchor by hand or free it by running the boat around a bit. Now, as to my sailing boats: I continue to use Danforth anchors but now use 50 fathoms of 3/8" chain followed by 300' of nylon rode for a shock absorber, I still haul by hand at age 75. Leaves a clear foredeck. If you use your motor to position the vessel properly over the anchor, hauling by hand works very well for boats up to 40 feet. I am no longer young but I compensate by anchoring in as shallow as I can.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by lituya1617

About Anchor Gear in Alaska. I retired from the fishing business in the early 1990's but I just have to tell you that the post that started this thread was an advertisement for a particular type of anchor. For my many years in the commercial fishing fleet, the most popular anchor was the Danforth by far. All chain rodes were popular and some drum wenches used chain for 20 fathoms or so and then galvanized wire rope (cable) for several hundred feet - bigger boats had more scope. But I used all 3/8" galvanized chain plus an 80# Danforth with a simple capstan mechanically driven, not hydraulic, on my 38' troller. On my 43' pot fishing boat, I used all 3/8' chain and a 100# Danforth which I hauled by hand. It was seldom difficult to haul out the hook because anchoring in over 15 fathoms never happened and shallow anchorages were the norm for my way of fishing. Two things about hauling chain by hand: it is a great workout made easy by positioning over the anchor and there is absolutely no expensive equipment to break down or malfunction. On one occasion when I fouled a 2-1/2" wire cable and had to lift it to the surface to free the anchor, I rigged a lifting line from the hydraulic pot puller to lift the anchor. Easy to do and the only time I could not haul the anchor by hand or free it by running the boat around a bit. Now, as to my sailing boats: I continue to use Danforth anchors but now use 50 fathoms of 3/8" chain followed by 300' of nylon rode for a shock absorber, I still haul by hand at age 75. Leaves a clear foredeck. If you use your motor to position the vessel properly over the anchor, hauling by hand works very well for boats up to 40 feet. I am no longer young but I compensate by anchoring in as shallow as I can.

An ad for that particular anchor type? That's pretty underhanded! And that's incredible that you pull that heavy an anchor and that much chain by hand! Good on you!

[MurrayC]

Looks loke it works like a heavy
Danforth - fluke area perpendicular to pull.
Does the typical big ship anchor work the same way? By burying?
Can't argue with success.?

[lituya1617]

A smooth capstan - commonly called a "niggerhead" WITHOUT ANY RACIST INTENT WHATSOEVER just a nautical name from centuries past - is nearly ideal as a way to lift an anchor as well as a versatile line puller when needed. You really do not need much room for a smooth capstan and they are mounted low enough to avoid line capture. Driving one with hydraulics works great and putting a hydraulic pump on an engine is not difficult.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by lituya1617

A smooth capstan - commonly called a "niggerhead" WITHOUT ANY RACIST INTENT WHATSOEVER just a nautical name from centuries past - is nearly ideal as a way to lift an anchor as well as a versatile line puller when needed. You really do not need much room for a smooth capstan and they are mounted low enough to avoid line capture. Driving one with hydraulics works great and putting a hydraulic pump on an engine is not difficult.

I absolutely agree. That's EXACTLY what is on Scorpius (hydraulically powered) and it works like a hot damn. And to REALLY make everyone jealous, we had it assembled from stock parts at a local hydraulic shop for $1600 and it's been working flawlessly for years.


I know the colloquial name for those capstans. I just didn't want to use it