Do We Have Anchoring All Wrong?

[Dsanduril]

This thread was initiated by daily walks up and down the dock where Forfjord anchors are literally in my face at every slip.

But, as I cast my mind back over our travels I see some commonality. The near shore (a few miles to a few tens of miles) fishing fleets around the world seem to be boats of sizes similar to ours. The shrimpers of Mexico and the US Gulf Coast (40-60'), the crayfish boats of NZ (35-50'), the longliners of Indonesia (30-60').

These are all displacement power boats capable of 6-8 knots. They work close enough to shore to seek shelter when foul weather is forecast, but not so close to home that they can tie up at their dock.

So, my bigger question has become, "what do these boats have in common (if anything) in their anchoring setups? And how does it differ from what we do, and why?"

Here we talk about maximizing our ground tackle because our boat is our house, and to lose our house would be devastating. Seems to me that for most fisherman it would be at least as dire if they lost they're livelihood?

[EmeraldCoastSailor]

Foredeck space is one issue but for me foredeck clutter is another in terms of jib sheets catching on stuff during a tack for example. Fishing boats don’t tack a headsail. Just a thought.

[TomThumb]

When I see a 'common' system in use, I am always cognisant of the power of groupthink and fad following. Fads tend to die when they aren't useful but most of us conform for a multitude of reasons.

In my experiences of many navies around the world, one common pattern in how we do things is 'standardisation'. We actively set common practices and standards for how a system, including many aspects of seamanship, is best setup. So for many years we become indoctrinated in this being both the 'best' and the 'right' way. Then someone decides to challenge that model or a new technology comes along and we do extensive testing to see if it is better. Then that is adopted and becomes the 'new best practice'. The reality is that other systems always worked, any testing and use case is subjective and the variables often so many there is no 'right' answer. You should see us argue over whether waterjets or props are better on our big RHIBs...

So, even as maritime professionals with big budgets, we don't have the 'best' answer, just one we are happy with until we are not.

So, I think you are seeing a mix of 'follow the leader' which then affects what the marine gear supply stores have in stock in that area and it all 'works' coupled with tradition and conservatism. To flip that around, I'd almost guarantee the Mexican, Indonesian and Alaskan fishing fleets haven't done extensive trials, always seeking the best answer. "Ain't broke, don't fix" as much as anything.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by EmeraldCoastSailor

Foredeck space is one issue but for me foredeck clutter is another in terms of jib sheets catching on stuff during a tack for example. Fishing boats don’t tack a headsail. Just a thought.

I think this is a big one with regard to the drum winch. On the fishing boats the foredeck is essentially wasted space. All of the work occurs aft, the foredeck is used for anchoring and when you tie up to the dock.

[Greg Mason]

You didn't mention the displacement of these vessels, which will also factor in. I have always used the rule of thumb, a pound of anchor weight per foot of vessel, minimum. I have a 37' 22,000lb boat and I use an all chain, ss swivel and a 45lb CQR. And then there is scope. I have never been blown off my anchor, but we set in reverse 'until the drinks spill.' I watch 'chuck anchor, drinks,' anchor darts, standing at the bow for 15 minutes to see what happens, none of it has to do with equipment.

[copaco]

This video was on my FB page this morning:
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https...__tn__=H-y-R&c[0]=AT0v9b2Kv5C47uAlBOPwPD79sL4zbpgVTXKP_FEQAl4w4XpUA 0B6o_d3tCjidZ36SddLXugc5JvPLTdkUv_0vtMFSLaB6tM0Ngb aEAYhI05fpKcsxnJGVoo_9Xny94xEjGpontMIcq9eLbn5aoPv0 1JpwiOzbtwSQcop5qDOGtDLvJ0oCH4ceV4liENJltJ_gIAp0XR QkOYFvKT2nlUPSVLW-eZTWwaPWJcAXxupgS_g3Q

[copaco]

I was watching Skip Novak's ''How to anchor in heavy weather '',this morning on Facebook.

[Gaia]

Interesting post and question. For what it is worth traditional boats in the Netherlands, of which there are many, almost all use the drum winch approach. The drum is often loaded with chain and cable! Anchors are fisherman type. However the water is shallow and the bottom almost always sand or mud.

[copaco]

Here, in the gulf of Saint-Lawrence, cruiser have adopted graplins from fishermen, but make them of sainless steel.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

And yet the setup used by commercial fishermen here in Alaska, who collectively spend a lot of nights at anchor in some pretty inhospitable settings, doesn't remotely match anything we discuss here.

The "why" varies by item.


Forfjord Anchor

Any good hinged fluke-type design (Danforth, Fortress, etc) will outperform the modern scoop-type anchors (Rocna, Mantus, etc) in mud, when comparing holding power vs. size. Forfjord should be no different but it's a heavier, more durable design than the Fortress. The drawbacks are that they don't reset reliably in a wind shift and don't perform as well in weedy, rocky, or sandy bottoms.

I don't know much about the bottom type in your area but would guess that the Forfjord is a better choice for that specific bottom.


Drum winch

The advantage of these is that they aren't picky about the size, shape, cleanliness, material, and condition of the rode. They have a number of serious drawbacks though:

1. It is nearly impossible to switch to an alternate rode, disconnect the rode and leave it on a float, or to use the winch for any other purpose in a difficult situation, such as for a warp line. This is because the existing rode must be completely removed from the drum first, which usually involves removing the winch cover and loosening whatever fastener holds the bitter end in place, and then a new rode attached.


2. The line speed and pulling power aren't consistent. As the drum fills, the line speed goes up and pulling power decreases. Therefore compromises must be made. Typically this means the thing runs too slowly when there's lots of rode out.


3. There are occasional problems with the cable/rope/chain wrap being bad and with the rode jamming on the drum after a heavy shock load is applied, or a sudden letting-out of a small amount of rode if a high spot on the wrap collapses.



As noted upthread, the mounting requirements are different, though of course drum winches can be mounted below decks if the goal is to keep the deck clear.




Rode



The differences in rode choice are mainly due to the differences between drum winches and capstan windlasses.



Capstan windlasses can't accept more than one size of chain, and operate poorly with small-diameter UHMWPE because it's slippery. This drives the thinking on sailboats.




Hydraulic vs. electric winch


In low-speed intermittent applications, hydraulic motors are cheaper, lighter, smaller, more reliable, cooler running, longer lasting, and better in every way than DC electric motors.


The problem is that you have to power them somehow. On a commercial fishing boat, hydraulic power is needed for hauling in nets and lines, so it's already there. On a sailboat, you have to add it, and the received wisdom is that it isn't a good tradeoff except on larger yachts where a hydraulic system will end up powering a bow thruster, power winches, and the windlass.



Snubber


I don't know what to make of this and will leave the question to others.

[thinwater]

First, I would not blow-off the OP. He brings up an obvious and valid question. Nearly all fishing boats up to a certain size range use drum winches--it is well proven for them. Not ships. Not recreational sailboats. I can come up with a few negatives. But there are positives.

• Saves space below. Drums are compact. The foredeck is really a non-use area on most fishing boats.
• Faster. Many smaller fishing boats move from place to place to fish.
• Long scope is fine. They don't care about swing. And a drum recovers scope easily.
• Power is not a problem. bigger power systems. Capable of pulling the boat up to the anchor.
• Weight is less of an issue.
• Anchor types. They are more likely to be anchoring over rocky, cobble, or weed bottoms. Better fishing. That is the reason I carry a Northill as secondary; can't be beat for fishing bottoms.

I'm going to follow this and see where it goes. They'd laugh at our systems as labor intensive and fussy.

[Dsanduril]

One more advantage I see to the drum winch - changing chain size is a simple task. Got 3/8" BBB chain (and gypsy)? Replacing someplace where 10mm DIN is available? Or want to switch to 5/16" G70 to save weight? No problem, just wind the new chain up on the drum.

[seandepagnier]

The commercial fisherman here run a diesel generator 24 hours a day in the harbor to power a freezer instead of using cheaper grid power.

And the lobster boats in maine are incredibly inefficient design and alternatives have proven to be more than twice the efficiency while also doing the job better, but "they like their boats"

Did you ever consider that these guys often think they know better because they are "working" and rarely explore new ideas themselves? What they are doing is probably not even optimal for their own use let alone cruising.


The drum is probably a good idea, but this "forfijord" anchor does not have the holding strength of a rocna or other type of anchor for the same weight. Probably not even half the holding power.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

...Did you ever consider that these guys are probably doing it wrong? ...

Certainly I considered that they might be doing it wrong, as I also considered that I/we might be doing it wrong. Hence the question. It seems an amazing amount of hubris to suggest "they" are "probably" doing it wrong when collectively there is "probably" far more experience at sea amongst "them" than us.

[RaymondR]

On my previous boat, a steely, I had to hand flake the chain in the locker when hoisting the anchor. I often pondered on how I might be able to install a drum winch in the locker space to allow me to hoist anchor from the helm position and still have the worm drive gearbox I was going to use on it somewhere.

They are a good idea in some circumstances.