Dinghy & outboard considerations from scratch

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Yup, you are lost in space.


a. I didn't suggest that there was always a long period thunder, I suggested that thunderstorms were in the forecast. In fact, there is often little thunder before the initial gust front. I'm also pretty certain there where dark clouds in the distance. These are a prerequisite for thunder, since it requires consider able circulation. And a 50 kt down draft requires a tall cloud. Am I wrong about these things? You did not say that I was.


b. Being commonplace to leave a dinghy in the water does not make it smart. I have davits and don't leave the dinghy in the water, hardly ever. Now you know one reason. But wakes can also be a problem.


Yes, planing is useful, but I gave you my opinion. I assumed that you wanted something light that would be easy to hoist on the davits, since you elected not to bother to lift the dinghy the few inches out of the water, which would have avoided the problem. An incorrect assumption.


Perhaps I seem like a smartass, but that was not my intention and I am sorry you took it that way. But you continue to argue that you did not make a basic error. The important lesson is that weather is predictable in its unpredictability in the summer. A very important lesson. I've been sailing 40 years and I've learned and relearned this lesson many times. I only get surprised by weather when I am guilty of not paying attention... which happens, though not often, not anymore.

Since we're apparently turning this thread into a spat about which one of us understands the situation I was in better (spoiler, only one of us was there)...

Here's a link to a story I just saw about the incident. Notice the comments about the suddenness of the wind, and the lack of anything concerning on radar shortly beforehand...
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...ing-community/

Now to take your points one at a time:
"I didn't suggest that there was always a long period thunder, I suggested that thunderstorms were in the forecast." Actually what you said was "I bet there was thunder for several minutes (time to recover a dinghy) before they struck." Well, there was not thunder for several minutes. There was thunder for a few seconds, then rain for a few seconds, then 50+kt wind. You were correct that thunderstorms were in the forecast, but they were forecasted for a few hours earlier in the day. According to the forecast, the threat was already over when this happened (and no thunderstorms actually materialized during the time they were forecasted for).

"In fact, there is often little thunder before the initial gust front." Once again, what you literally said was "I bet there was thunder for several minutes (time to recover a dinghy) before they struck" If you're going to talk down to me, maybe contradict yourself less.

"I'm also pretty certain there where dark clouds in the distance" Well, there was low gray cloud cover all day, and this event happened right when the light was fading anyway. Probably the clouds associated with this cell were darker and taller than the others, but it wasn't obvious to see when I did a chafe check about 20 minutes before the event. Then I was down below when it hit, so I can't speak for the few minutes leading up to it. But once again, you're assuming you know how things happened here without seeing it, and you choose to assume things that make you feel superior to me. Not really cool.

"These are a prerequisite for thunder, since it requires consider able circulation. And a 50 kt down draft requires a tall cloud. Am I wrong about these things? You did not say that I was." Of course I didn't say you were wrong about those things. You didn't say those things in your first comment. Was I supposed to read your mind and refute your points before you made them?

"Being commonplace to leave a dinghy in the water does not make it smart. I have davits and don't leave the dinghy in the water, hardly ever. Now you know one reason. But wakes can also be a problem." Sure. You get me on that one. But honestly, unexpected weather like this is pretty unlikely, and leaving the dinghy on the painter behind is so convenient. I'm unlikely to change this behavior even now. Hauling it up every time I come back from shore, and plan to use it again in literally less than 5 hours is just making work for myself. Congrats for being so self disciplined.

"Yes, planing is useful, but I gave you my opinion. I assumed that you wanted something light that would be easy to hoist on the davits..." Well actually, you didn't have to assume that one. I said in my post "Since I single-hand most of the time, I definitely want to be able to manhandle the outboard on and off by myself. Plus, I don't want something that will unbalance my small dinghy." So I was concerned about weight, but not for fear of having to hoist it on the davits - I get plenty of mechanical advantage for that part. You also should have known that I wanted to plane, from when I said "The current outboard is a Yamaha 2.5 HP. It gets me on plane when I'm alone in the dinghy, but not with 2 or more people on board, so I'd love a bit more power." I guess your comment was meant to say that in your opinion, I shouldn't bother getting enough outboard to get on plane. That's fine in itself, although I disagree. But you also said "Planing isn't needed where you sail, and 6 hp will plane one person." Which just indicates you didn't really read my post. If 2.5HP will plane one person, then of course 6HP will. So here you're telling me to keep the engine light, but also recommending I go to a heavier engine than the current one. Just weird and confusing, but at least it was on topic.

Now for the second half of your bit about davits: "since you elected not to bother to lift the dinghy the few inches out of the water, which would have avoided the problem. An incorrect assumption." Unclear if you're exaggerating how short the davits are, or if you really would have recommended hauling the dinghy only the first few inches out. If the latter, then I disagree strongly that that would have been better. The last thing I want is a big piece of windage hanging off the davits by several feet of loose tether on both sides. That's a recipe for the dinghy to swing and slam and break stuff. But even if you didn't mean that, and were just implying that hoisting the dinghy out is easy and I'm a lazy person for not doing it, you still sound like a dick. And assuming one instance of choosing to leave the dinghy in the water means I don't care about ever being able to use my davits easily is just asinine.

"Perhaps I seem like a smartass, but that was not my intention" Right, that's why you opened your post with a smartass comment about my name...

"and I am sorry you took it that way" I frankly don't believe you.

"But you continue to argue that you did not make a basic error. " Well actually I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that leaving the dinghy in the water in this set of circumstances was a reasonable course of action. I did in fact make a couple of much more serious errors, and I'm lucky they didn't cost me the boat. Maybe I'll post another thread later that goes into that part of this story.

"The important lesson is that weather is predictable in its unpredictability in the summer. A very important lesson." Please sound more condescending. Beautiful.

"I've been sailing 40 years and I've learned and relearned this lesson many times. I only get surprised by weather when I am guilty of not paying attention... which happens, though not often, not anymore." Again, congrats on the self discipline. But this particular incident managed to surprise an awful lot of people, including those with lots of experience and who were paying attention (namely, the guy on the Swan referenced in the article I linked).

It's this kind of forum behavior that deters people from posting and learning. I asked for recommendations on a dinghy and outboard, with a bit of commentary to explain why insurance was expected to help with the cost. You responded with condescending remarks implying I'm a fool, and making yourself feel superior. Not cool.

Finally, writing all this out actually has made me want to start a thread about the microburst and lessons learned. Look out for that later today (I'll link to this one as well). And please feel free to chime in on that discussion, as you clearly have strong opinions and sound like you can speak from experience. Just try to do so without being a dick.

[Mickeyrouse]

In 25 years, I am on my second Achilles 9’6”. It has never flipped even when 70mph winds were recorded by NWS a mile away. Planes with 2 folk w 5 hp, 960 lb. carrying capacity, well-built, parts don’t change (at least in 30 years that I know). If this one disappears, no question what replaces it.

[capnorv]

We have a 10' Gig Harbor Captains Gig, now ten years old. Has been trouble free though I did replace the propulsion, 8' spoon oars this year. When cruising, and at night it stays on the davits. We have not been full timers with this setup unfortunately. We do not have a dog, for poop patrol, haven't rowed more than five miles at a time, and that's probably the biggest drawbacks. Lack of speed and endurance as with mechanical propulsion. In our mid sixties, I have to say I've been thinking of an electric upgrade, but after reading this thread, I wonder if it would be an upgrade.

[bouncycastle]

I am single handed 30 foot narrow Hull sail boat 1968 era and not much space on deck

I opted to get a 6 foot Fun Yak polypropylene Square twin Hull type dingy. Rowing when you sort out good oar locks is possible in up to force five in sheltered bays with micro waves where I normally anchor. The boat goes on cabin roof. The weight is ~20 kg so I use a halyard to hoist up but have done it with brute force few times and I am a cabbage 5 bypass heart op so it's not too heavy to heave it up.

I would like to do cheaper electric probably do the kyak surf board type clip on kits like Bixpy or similar many Web sites out there

https://youtu.be/IR6jztaL0Tw

https://youtu.be/IR6jztaL0Tw

Be aware many of these electric types use the bagged type of Li ions called LiPo for lituim polymer and cycle life's tend to ~300 to ~800 cycles compared to 18650 types battery with cycle life of ~1000 to ~2000 cycle life's.
The lipo are sometimes cheaper than 18650 cels so explains the cheaper price but lack of cycle life can make it more expensive in the long run

The lipo type cells can often be recharged very quickly ~20 minutes and give interesting power but at expense of shirt run times and cycle life .
That can be very useful to some users as three packs can allow one pack in use for twenty minutes one pack recharging for twenty minutes and one pack cooling down for twenty minutes giving continuous use daily. That harsh cycle system is problematic for 18650 type cells packs

However Bixy types electric motor kits have extra kit add on to use as under water tractor for scuba or snorkeling diving.
Electronic profecent people can also make their own 18650 packs to run Bixy motors and as the price of these cells are tumbling it interesting to do this or learn to do this.
The alternative is buy ready made packs often found on electric bike Web sites.
Also its possible to convert electric bike packs to work with bixy tyres of electric outboards boat and surf boards and kyaks and scuba tractors

Keep an eye on kyak type motor system solutions as there are many new types and Web sites every day and interesting price drops

I am not saying the Tolledo or other electric engines are bad but there prices are steep especially for boat users who might not use electric power frequently enough to justify the bigger costs

There does exist some larger 24 volt 110 amp electric outboards such as Haswing 5 hp

They claim to be 5 to 6 hp equivalent power even though the max power is ~2600 Watts which is at "~735 wants per hp more like ~3.6 bhp. That Haswing 5 hp is turning a 10 inch prop but not at very high rpm like a" "~6 hp gasoline turning a small prop is doing. That suggests the Haswing 5 hp with heavy non planing boat will be able to match the ~6 hp but on a planing light boat the Haswing 5hp will probably be disappointing unless there is strong head wind it is fighting and then the electric powered slow RPM prop will act more like a 8hp at half gas with lots of tourgue at low speeds.

https://youtu.be/fUwWU5NPpF8


A better way to measure powder is kg thrust.
HSSWING 5 HP is ~120 lbs or ~50kg thrust but at slower speeds than gasoline so more like tractor grunt power than zippy gasoline power

My future plans are get a inflatable surf board and a inflable tender craft ~2.5 metres and suitable ~6 hp two stroke and deflate these inflatables crafts and put them under the fun yak on top the cabin roof on long passages.


Keep you posted. Next year when I plan to go
blue water sailing again

[Jimmyhenry]

Big tick for the Highfield 3.1. They plane easily albeit they are a bit heavier to haul on board the foredeck than lesser quality RIBs. We use a very old but reliable Yamaha 2 and an incredibly reliable 1981 Model 15 hp Yamaha. For some reason people sell these old outboards for ridiculously low prices. A little bit of maintenance and you get great service from these old motors.

[Shaneesprit]

Just don’t complain when your insurance goes up, in my opinion asking for insurance to pay for such a small loss is pointless, short term thinking, take it on the chin and move on.
On the outboard with something so small you obviously only want an outboard you don’t actually need one which is fine, with this in mind I would actually recommend a 5.8HP Chinese made aircooled model, as you can always Row if you needed and they are Aircooled so a lot less maintenance and you can afford in weight and cost to carry 2 if you really must.
On the Dingy I recommend the buying the best Hypalon you can - for me always an AVON maybe another 20 years before I buy another brand

[Pickle]

Here is one. OCT! Ocean cruising tender. Rigid light weight. No air to worry about. We have a 2.7 with a 9.9hp. Check them out. Made in New Zealand. They are shipping to Florida.

[mikedefieslife]

The OCT are beautiful, but there are some drawbacks, compared to the the RIBs listed. They are twice the cost. Weight is net hull weight so doesn't include anything other than the hull. The payload of the 3m is comically low. It's no more than 2.6m 36cm tubed aluminium double floor RIB that can take a 10hp engine.

Amazing tenders, I've seen a few up close and personal, but they don't compete on specs to the same size rib.

[JebLostInSpace]

Thanks all for the input. I ended up getting a new Tohatsu 6 for a few reasons. The weight and size were nearly identical to my old Yamaha 2.5, there was a dealer in town that had it in stock, he was willing to deliver it to the dinghy dock near me (huge help since I'm a transient), and since insurance agreed to foot the bill, I wasn't hyper concerned with the $2k price tag.

I very nearly went for a used torqueedo at a local consignment shop that was available for $1200 (with spare battery), but ultimately decided against it based on the comments earlier in this thread.

I haven't addressed the dinghy itself yet. Nobody in Newport seemed to be able to sell me one as small as the current one. (Lots of super yachts in Newport lol) I'll keep my eye out for a good deal on a used one, but for now I'm just living with the fact I have to pump up the one pontoon about once a day.

On a side note, my insurance company has been remarkably good since I signed up with them in March. I've had 2 interactions, and both times they were great. The first was just a reimbursement for hurricane preparation costs, which are 50% covered in my policy. Part of the cost I incurred for Isaias was a hotel room which I booked with points. The agent assigned to that case didn't have any problem reimbursing me for the cash value of the room, and didn't make any fuss about me claiming expenses that weren't directly related to the boat. (I decided to weather the storm on a mooring ball after talking to the guy who inspected its anchor, but stayed on shore for the actual event)

This dinghy damage was the second interaction with them, and once again they treated me very well. After describing the damage and discussing options, they elected to write off the dinghy as a total loss, which gave me $4k to work with for replacing stuff, AND activated a clause that meant I didn't have to pay the $500 dinghy deductible. He did this based purely on my description of the damage over the phone, and a single photo. I realize claiming this may impact my rates, but I figure the $4k check he cut me will cover any increase in the rate for at least a couple of years...

For anyone interested, the insurance co is Markel, who I found via Gowrie Group as the broker. They are the first boat insurance I've had, so maybe they are all this good. But compared to other interactions I've had with health, car, rental, etc. insurers, this has been a quite remarkably good experience.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

They are the first boat insurance I've had, so maybe they are all this good.

We could only wish.


They show their teeth when the dollar amounts become larger.

[Shaneesprit]

Let’s have a report from you when you pay the next insurance bill.
My renewal arrived today just less than £300.

[Mirage35]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Consider a 4 HP Tohatsu four stroke. Same as a Nissan, but for less, and they've got the weight down close to the two-strokes. Reliable.

Small but real RIB recommended- anything that folds is not going to plane as well.

Don't know if they've changed since mine was new, but I had a Tohatsu 6 hp (just traded it in on a Torqeedo, FWIW) that weighed exactly the same as the 4 hp model.

It was a good motor on an eight foot RIB, but gas outboards and I have a hate-hate relationship so I wanted to try something else.

[Mirage35]

Just saw OP's last post, and see he took my advice before I posted it. Very proactive.

[HobieDog]

Cool, that's a great motor and would have been my recommendation as well. I have the same (well, sort of...I have a 4hp Mercury upgraded with the 6hp carb and prop). It has been very reliable and survived an upside down tow into Boothbay Harbor for about 30 mins a few weeks ago.

Mine is mounted to a 10' Zodiac 310 RIB (fiberglass bottom) that I purchased from Defender 2 years ago. It's a great match for that boat and gets myself, wife, 3yo kid, and dog all up on plane if we're strategic with our weight placement. When it's just me, it really cranks.

Defender is probably a little over an hour from you in RI and they generally have a wide variety of the Zodiac RIBs in stock. I'd suggest taking a ride down there and picking one up. With that nice insurance check in hand you may as well go for a hypalon/aluminum floor combo.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Do you have any idea how long it took for the torqeedo's to "go wrong" from those you've met? Longevity is definitely one of my big concerns with them, since the upfront cost is a fair bit higher than the gas engines. Once they "went wrong" I'm assuming the repairs were more difficult/expensive? Or maybe they were just garbage at that point?

torqeedo do not want you to repair the motor yourself and are not diy friendly, best avoid them.


There are many alternatives:
https://www.electricpaddle.com/shop.html


This is much ligher than torqeedo