Yankee or blade or...?

[Jim Cate]

You might read some of Dockhead's posts on this subject. With his new suit of sails, he seems to have found that the blade will outperform the Yankee on all points of sail,down to fairly low wind speeds.

You'll have to apply some intuitive correction factors to account for his very high tech carbon laminate sails and a larger yacht.

My own experience is that genoas of more than ~ 120% do not add much to performance. I suspect that they were introduced long ago when the racing rule did not count sail area beyond the foretriangle (> 100%) as counting in the rating. May have that skewed a bit, but as I recall, roach and overlap areas were unrated.

On IOR designs, big foresails and small, almost vestigial mains were the winning combination. Lead to lots of headsail changes and big inventories... not cruiser friendly!

One further thought: You talk about buying a bunch of 50 buck sails so that you can have just the right sail area available. IMO if you are talking about getting to windward well, the 50 buck sail, no matter what size, isn't gonna do well. Folks don't tend to sell sails with much good shape left for very low bucks... rather they are decidedly blown out and will not perform any better than your reefed roller sail. In your position, I'd be looking for one good sail of a #4 sorta size. That is, nearly full hoist and ~80 % foretriangle. Be ready to pay maybe 1/3 to 1/2 new cost... you will then have a sail that will actually get you to windward in a bit of breeze.

Jim

[SailingFan]

Jim, thanks for the reply.

I actually was not worried so much about windward performance, as I was thinking of using the currently owned sail for upwind until it proves acceptable or not. I only have hank-on headsail capability at the moment, though, so was thinking rather of strong down and cross-wind activity and just going to a smaller size sail forward, thereby reducing heel and reducing tendency of burying the bows in rough water.

Essentially, I would be using the vessel's weather helm to advantage using a smaller sail than the full fore. This is what made me think of using the older discards of smaller sails. I was thinking about later replacing my headsail with a new one, but at the $700 plus quoted for a new genoa, I did not have the scratch right now relative to all the other things I am working on to deal with that using a new sail. This is what made me think of using a smaller discards, or adjusting a sail to fit a less efficient capability of capturing wind.

Essentially, I would be planning on the smaller sails being less effective in general in harnessing the wind, and as effective in keeping me stabilized and moving downwind or perhaps cross wind without the negatives of capturing too much wind in rough conditions.

For upwind on a small sail, I may be able to locate a smaller new sail from a loft that would serve upwind if my current sail did not fit the bill, I am not sure yet. I will know more when I get the refit done and get her out on the water for real world evaluation with a more seasoned sailor on board with me (he is a racing sailor and has extensive experience in all sorts of boats in this size in varied weather and sea states).

I have not studied and gotten that smaller sail option quoted yet because there aren't any who seem to be willing to offer or suggest the preferred actual dimensions for a boat my size due to the potential of the mast and rigging being different than it was when the boat was new, along with the variables in the different spar dimension combinations that Hunter may have used at the factory back then. Without those actual measured dimensions, the lofts don't want to even offer a tentative guess (not even asking for a quote here) to me, so I am stuck here asking for advice from the forum's knowledgeable professionals in this field.

I am still attempting to drop the mast to gain those numbers and make some other repairs, and it is damned frustrating for someone new to sail construction to go through that level of non-support when he is trying to give them money that is so hard earned and dear as mine tends to be.

Heck, the Marlow-Hunter manufacting line is only a few miles from me, and they won't comment on what went into the boats from that era because they don't want to get involved and claim that they don't have the paperwork or information any more (how is that for customer service?). I know it is not the same company after all these years, and that they don't consider themselves responsible or accountable in the least for a vessel this old, but still, at least a nod to get me to consider a newer version would be a wise marketing tactic, and it is something that was not even attempted despite my polite requests for information... Seems they are losing potential customers there even if I am only the one pushing the brand to someone else. Bad marketing strategy going on at Marlow-Hunter...

Reminds me of Savage and my 110G rifle... They hear the first digit of the serial number on the rifle reciever and literally hang up on you. No kidding... The employees bought the company back from their formerly British owners (who bought it from people in Canada or the US if I recall, I think Tecumseh), and the new American lawyers apparently told the new employee-owners (of the latest incarnation at the time) that they were forbidden to discuss any rifles made during the time the British owned the company because they did not want to assume any potential liabilities from that period. Makes sense, but at least explain it to the owner so he does not tell others how bad your customer service is! Better yet, make a trigger to replace the crappy one the British created, and sell it to the folks with the old rifles so that they can improve the potentially faulty ones with the new expensive trigger that you now make for the same version of the rifle made by the same workers and with the same company facilities! Lost marketing opportunity, and lost sales... (my rant over, apologies)

[GILow]

Originally Posted by SailingFan

From that image, I believe we are discussing the same sail, the one smaller than and higher than the red outlined one. I was not thinking of using it in light winds, though, but as a smaller sail to use when the larger sail was too much. Perhaps my application intent is faulty?

There's a bit of a problem with the sail configuration you are considering, as noted by Kenomac's description.

As the wind speed increases, you want to bring the sail area both down in area AND closer to the mast. Given the yankee is right out the front of the boat, you'll probably find you run into all sorts of helm balance issues using it on its own in strong winds.

I certainly do.

I have a very traditional cutter rig with a high cut traditional style yankee on a furler. Over winter I am a lazy bugger and like to sail to my favorite local anchorages (<5 miles) without lots of faffing around with sails, so I tend to use just the yankee on its own. As a result, any upwind anchorages are out of the question, I'd be lucky to make 50 degrees apparent with just the yankee, and if there is any kind of sea state, make that 70 degrees apparent.

When I am not being lazy, or NEED to get upwind in strong conditions, then it's the main (reefed as required) and the staysail, although I keep the yankee for the slot effect right up to the last minute, maybe 20 to 25 knots apparent or less.

Matt

[Jim Cate]

SF, I think that you may be overthinking your problem a bit. You can easily get the critical measurements from your rig with a tape measure. No need to worry about what Hunter may have done years ago... find out what those numbers really are. You certainly do not need to drop the mast to find them, and in fact, the mast needs to be in place to get them.

Remember that someone has been successfully sailing that boat for years, just as it is. All the hypothetical improvements that you are considering may not be necessary or even desirable in the real world.

So, before spending money on bowsprits, inner stays or even different sails, get some hours and miles on her. Then you will know if she has a cranky disposition (lots of weather helm) or other bad habits. And you will find out if you really need more power reaching or running, and perhaps find that she sails well as rigged.

For the budget sailor, learning to make the most of what you already have is really important!

Jim

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

SF, I think that you may be overthinking your problem a bit. You can easily get the critical measurements from your rig with a tape measure. No need to worry about what Hunter may have done years ago... find out what those numbers really are. You certainly do not need to drop the mast to find them, and in fact, the mast needs to be in place to get them.

Remember that someone has been successfully sailing that boat for years, just as it is. All the hypothetical improvements that you are considering may not be necessary or even desirable in the real world.

So, before spending money on bowsprits, inner stays or even different sails, get some hours and miles on her. Then you will know if she has a cranky disposition (lots of weather helm) or other bad habits. And you will find out if you really need more power reaching or running, and perhaps find that she sails well as rigged.

For the budget sailor, learning to make the most of what you already have is really important!

Jim

Thank you Jim. This is exactly the kind of gentle head bashing I need now and then.

I still have to drop the mast sadly because there is no running rigging installed (PO removed it all!!) and I have not been able to handle that issue (have the lines, just have to get the mast low enough to install them, and have to complete a mast step repair as well in the cabin top while the mast is down, reinstall some spreader lights and tape the spreader ends again, put LEDs in the anchor and steaming light fixtures, etc.). I was thinking I could then get danged close with the tape, or maybe use the newly installed halyards at that point of remasting to make measurements if having the mast down was counterproductive to that effort.

I sure wish it had a tabernacle or hinge baseplate installed.

OK, all that off my chest, I will be patient, get things fixed that are mandatory, and get her back in the water before dealing with canvassing issues. After we toy with her a while, I will come back and revisit with pics and likely a few observations for others in the same...boat...

Jim, I want to again thank you and Ann both, because you have both been so nice to me when my head goes off on a tangent. I start thinking and the brain just goes into overdrive. The patience that those on these threads display for me is surely an incredible benefit for many. Thanks, and please do keep offering this wisdom!

[Jim Cate]

SF, thanks for the kind words.

I didn't realize that there were no halyards rigged on your mast... that does make measuring things (and a lot of other stuff) much harder. I think you are right that the stick must come down. On a boat your size it is possible to DIY this job if money is really tight. It requires the help of at least one, an better two somewhat larger vessels. Basically, you use their halyards as a crane to lift your mast and then lower it down on deck. Sounds kinda like a Patrick O'Brian plot, but it works. We teamed up with Motoisser's old Josua to drop and restep the mast on a small trimaran in La Paz years ago... and we didn't really know what we were about, but it worked!

Lots of ways to get around tasks on smaller boats!

Good luck with it all, and we'll be here to help or hinder along the way!

Jim

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

So, if I understand correctly, when tacking to windward I'd be better off using just the blade by itself in winds up to 20 knots or so and then switch to just the staysail?

yes. The staysail would need to be designed for that application, and not an ORC storm jib design.

But if I had a Yankee, I'd use both it and the staysail at the same time?

(generally) yes, for pure upwind it depends a bit on sheeting angles and cut

But if I was just close reaching in lighter winds, in order to increase sail area I could use both the blade and staysail together?

yes, in very roughly the 55 to 80 apparent wind angles the two will work efficiently together.

Is one choice going to be significantly harder to tack than the other?

I have mostly worked quite hard to avoid having to tack a sail across an inner stay - so I have never really looked at this question. I would think sail length would be the main driver of increased difficulty. But I could see, for the same length, the blade being a bit more difficult than a high cut because more surface area friction.

One other thing to consider/ask is the range of your jib sheet blocks. I presume they are outboard (on your toerail)? How far forward do they come - up to the stays? High cut sails use far aft sheeting while low cut/blades use quite forward sheeting. So, no point considering something you can not sheet for.

Thinking about your answer to my upwind question . . . . I think my recommendation would be neither a real blade nor a real yankee, but rather a general purpose cut with the clew at chest to head height. That will be a bit more 'all around' for the range of sailing you are likely to do. For size, somewhere between 105-115%, reading between the lines it sounds like you perhaps skew on the light wind side, so perhaps at the upper end of that range (115%). That will be a sail that will be excellent close reaching, with or without the staysail; will be good but not quite as good as a real blade totally close hauled. I'm guessing your jib sheeting angles will be wide-ish, so it will work either with or without the staysail just fine - you can play around with that.

As I mention above . . . .re staysails . . . . often the sail makers gives you an ORC storm jib design, and those are miserable sails for most conditions. They are fine for storm conditions when you have large amounts of green water on deck and so need the foot of the sail up off the deck, but otherwise are usually too small and poorly cut for general use. We carried three staysails (they are small and stow pretty well) but the one we used by far the most was a near blade (clew up just a bit) with a small mast overlap (so a pretty big size) - that was awesome both for upwind alone in +25 and under the jib close reaching. We had also a biggish 'blast reacher' staysail but only swapped to that if we were going to be in those conditions for a couple days. And we had a storm staysail.

[SailingFan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

SF, thanks for the kind words.

I didn't realize that there were no halyards rigged on your mast... that does make measuring things (and a lot of other stuff) much harder. I think you are right that the stick must come down. On a boat your size it is possible to DIY this job if money is really tight. It requires the help of at least one, an better two somewhat larger vessels. Basically, you use their halyards as a crane to lift your mast and then lower it down on deck. Sounds kinda like a Patrick O'Brian plot, but it works. We teamed up with Motoisser's old Josua to drop and restep the mast on a small trimaran in La Paz years ago... and we didn't really know what we were about, but it worked!

Lots of ways to get around tasks on smaller boats!

Good luck with it all, and we'll be here to help or hinder along the way!

Jim

Thanks again! The yardmaster recently acquired a manlift, and he said that for $100 he would use it to lower my mast, assuming I had another person on board to assist with removing pins and guiding things, which I had wanted in the first place anyway. As soon as I get that arranged (hopefully later this month) that will be my next step. Once I get the mast down, I am going to rebuild the step core in the coach roof, and while it hardens, I am going to work on the mast halyards, wiring, etc. When it all goes back on, I am going to have to figure out how to get the rigging tensioned properly (where the yardmaster may again come in handy, and hopefully he will be merciful in cost there, because he has become more and more friendly as time has gone by and I think increasingly that he actually owns this yard, rather than just works there).

[Cheechako]

I think on a 27 a true yankee is a waste. It's really only a sail for good wind in tandem with the staysail. Even the one I outlined in red is mostly unreachable at the clew, although in light air you can just barely reach it. The 115% high cut is kind of my thought on a sail that is high cut but similar area to a blade.... and still works well in lightish air.... like 10 knots etc.

[KP44]

I have a 60' mast with cutter rig. The headsail(s) power the boat and the main balances it. Our genoa is about 125 and cut high, maybe close to a Yankee. It can be furled to tack but can also be tacked around the stays'l stay. I need longer sheets but really not a problem, so far.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

One other thing to consider/ask is the range of your jib sheet blocks. I presume they are outboard (on your toerail)? How far forward do they come - up to the stays? High cut sails use far aft sheeting while low cut/blades use quite forward sheeting. So, no point considering something you can not sheet for.

Thinking about your answer to my upwind question . . . . I think my recommendation would be neither a real blade nor a real yankee, but rather a general purpose cut with the clew at chest to head height. That will be a bit more 'all around' for the range of sailing you are likely to do. For size, somewhere between 105-115%, reading between the lines it sounds like you perhaps skew on the light wind side, so perhaps at the upper end of that range (115%). That will be a sail that will be excellent close reaching, with or without the staysail; will be good but not quite as good as a real blade totally close hauled. I'm guessing your jib sheeting angles will be wide-ish, so it will work either with or without the staysail just fine - you can play around with that.

As I mention above . . . .re staysails . . . . often the sail makers gives you an ORC storm jib design, and those are miserable sails for most conditions. They are fine for storm conditions when you have large amounts of green water on deck and so need the foot of the sail up off the deck, but otherwise are usually too small and poorly cut for general use. We carried three staysails (they are small and stow pretty well) but the one we used by far the most was a near blade (clew up just a bit) with a small mast overlap (so a pretty big size) - that was awesome both for upwind alone in +25 and under the jib close reaching. We had also a biggish 'blast reacher' staysail but only swapped to that if we were going to be in those conditions for a couple days. And we had a storm staysail.

Wow! I really appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge of this subject and your well reasoned replies to my questions, and your conclusions regarding what would be my best sail combo seem spot on to me. Thanks also to Cheechako and to Ken and to Suijin and to Tayana42 for your inputs which all seem to generally agree with Evans. In less than 24 hours I feel like I now have a MUCH better idea about what will work best for me.

My genoa track is very long with 4X tackle led to rope clutch on coaming, and actually is fairly well inboard, about 4"-6" from the cabin, but I plan to use a local sailmaker and he will be aboard my boat to measure and I will be sure to talk to him about sheeting angles. But he's very good and I'm sure that even if I said nothing, he'd not build me a sail that I couldn't properly trim.

Regarding staysails, I currently have two, a rather large one as well as a higher cut and ruggeder and smaller storm staysail so I guess I should get a bolt rope sewed onto both of them and not just the bigger one. Hopefully I'll never use the storm staysail but it takes up the least room of all my sails (except for storm trysail) so easy to stow away onboard and not that difficult to change out if I know ahead of time I'm going to be in a real blow. Also, my boat has about a 6' long staysail sheet track on either side of the cabin top, that begins abeam a point just forward of the mast, running back towards cockpit so sheeting angles for both staysails should be OK.

So.....my plan is to ask my sailmaker to build about a 105-115 slightly high clewed jib (somewhere between a Yankee and a low clewed blade) that I will plan to use by itself when beating in light to moderate wind conditions but will also be able to roll out the large staysail to complement it when off the wind. Since my staysail is quite large, in winds over about 20 knots, it alone (with reefed main) will provide adequate hp so it would make sense to have the jib furled at that point. So your suggestion to have the jib built for light(ish) air makes good sense to me.

Once again, I think those who have made contributions here have provided a great example of what makes CF so worthwhile and I'm grateful for that. When I have areas where I know my knowledge is weak or almost non existent, it's really nice to know I can tap into sailors with real world, experienced based knowledge who will take the time to help get me up to speed. Thanks all!