Winch upgrades - help me pick

[sailingunity]

I'm upgrading my winches from the wire drum style winches that came with my Olympic Adventure 47. I picked up 3 Barient 27 winches from a fellow cruiser who was upgrading, only one of which I can use (for the main halyard). The original drum winches have no size labeled on them at all so I have no where to start.

The mizzen halyard winch needs to be smaller so I'll have to sell or trade 2 of the winches. I'm lost on the numbering system these manufacturers use. Do I need two speed for my little mizzen sail? The mounting plate on the mizzen mast is about 5.75" square, how do I figure out what size winch to buy?

I'm also going to add a reefing winch to the main mast. I don't have a mounting base for the this yet, so I have the flexibility to pick one and then make the base, that being said what is a good size?

I'm not near the boat so I wasn't able to take real pictures, here is one of the main on a rather bumpy upwind slog around the Berry's. The other is the mizzen with a messy cockpit!

[UNCIVILIZED]

Here's a place to start, with a fair bit of info for those unused to selecting winches & deck hardware http://www.harken.com/article.aspx?id=12853In addition to that, you can look at other winch manufacturer's sites, as well as spar makers, chandleries, & of course talk to riggers. Harken has Outstanding tech support & customer care, BTW, even if you choose winches by another maker. So you might pick their brain for ideas.

I say this, especially as this isn't just about buying new winches, but setting up your deck hardware & layout for best ease of use. Since good deck hardware, & it's layout makes the loads seen by the winches when cranking things in a lot lower. As there’s much, much less overall friction in your systems.
For example, a block with no or poor bearings can double the force required to adjust a line as compared to using a block with great bearings.

Figure out how you want to rig the boat, in terms of where you'll be putting winches, & approximately what sized ones, & then see who'll give you the best package deal. Including having them throw in some of the more commonly replaced/required spare parts, mounting fasteners & templates, etc. As well as overhaul kits, to include; pawls, pawl springs, grease, & retaining rings/circle clips.

A couple of tips. When in doubt, go with the bigger size, even if on paper it seems to have too much power, as rarely is there such a thing when it comes to winches. Especially if your guests are 5' tall, female, or kids. That, or you're sick, tired, wrenched your shoulder, etc.

You can calculate the power ratios on your current winches by wrapping a line around the winch drum, & seeing how far the line moves for every 10 turns of the winch. Dividing by 10 of course once you have the measurement, in order to get the power ratio. Plus of course the drum diameter to handle length ratio. And do this test on each winch a few times, with a friend providing a bit of resistance on the line to pull against with the winch, or by hoisting a repeatable load with the winch, such as a 5gal jerry jug of water. This will give you a place to start in terms of choosing winch sizes (power ratios).

Try & keep the number of different size winches (& brands) onboard to a minimum. It makes things a lot easier when it's time to service them, as well as the amount of spare parts you need to keep on hand. And check around to see which brand has lots of dealers in your area, as well as in terms of areas which you may visit. Just in case you need spares in some far off land.

Practical Sailor, & many other periodicals routinely do winch evaluations. So snag said back issues, as well as doing some online searching on various brands. That said, & I HATE to bad mouth companies, but Avoid Lewmar. Their customer care & tech support SUCKS. And if you buy their gear you’ll be needing it.
I say this having worked with most of the major brands out there, personally, & professionally.

In terms of the parts of the winch that are exposed to the sun, metal construction is preferable to plastic. It’s a UV thing, as well as outright strength & wear resistance. And unless you're seriously concerned about weight, bronze (chromed or not), & stainless are better than aluminum. They're more abuse tolerant, & less prone to corrosion if immersed for long periods. Such as if the drain holes in the bases get clogged.

Use high quality fasteners, & bedding compounds when mounting them, & don't settle for "good enough" in terms of how they’re mounted, & also in attaining proper lead angles for the lines running to the winches.

Look closely at the spec’s on self-tailing winches to ensure that they’ll well grip any size lines that you might use them with. As some models & brands don’t like either really skinny lines, or overly thick ones. Which may not seem important right now, but later you may wish to switch from a double braided Dacron line to a Dyneema cored one like Warpspeed. And the size differences between the two in order to keep the same strength level in the line is huge. So check to see what a winch will handle.

Newer designs, & or flat out newer winches aren’t necessarily better. And sometimes quite the opposite. As older designs use more metal parts, & other sturdier materials. Which, in the drive to make things ever lighter, many such parts get replaced by polymers in newer winches. Just if you’re buying older winches or designs, ensure that spare parts are easy to come by.

Oh, & there are a few models/makes of 2 & 3 speed winches which have a button on top of the winch that you press in order to switch gears. Avoid them, as they have a nasty habit of occasionally self-disassembly at entirely the wrong time.

Also, it really is worth hiring some 1-on-1 time with a GOOD rigger to discuss your desires, & what will/won’t work, or is best, & why. Much like having a good mechanic on an older car, especially a classic, can save you far, far more than the extra few dollars per hour that he costs over a chain store mechanic.
Including having him help you with deck (hardware) design & layout so as to optimize the placement of winches & hardware, thus making onboard trimming & hoisting chores a lot easier. As blocks with good bearings make a world of difference, especially turning blocks, & sheaves (mastheads especially). Ditto on where they're positioned.

There is of course, more, & also if you have questions, please ask.

PS: Don’t fall prey to the Siren call of powered winches. Specifically, ensure that your winches are big enough to do the job with ease via hand power alone, before you start considering adding motors or hydraulics into the picture. And if you do get powered winches, lead as much to them (within reason) as you can, via good deck design/hardware layout. And tail the winches by hand, not via using the built in self tailer. I can explain why later, needs be. But it boils down to safety.

[JPA Cate]

Andersen self-tailers, and size them for the weaker person who sails with you.

Ann

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Andersen self-tailers, and size them for the weaker person who sails with you.

Ann

The lady does have a point. And quite a good one at that!

[stnick]

I like and use Anderson ST 2 speed Hard to find a better made winch 316 SS !
Ill see if i can find the site i used to buy them half price..

[Jim Cate]

Yes, the Anderson winches are my favorites of the current marketplace.

But, reading between the OP's lines, I suspect that he is trying to do this on the cheap, and that kinda rules out buying new Andersons.

My answer to his questions about size echo Unciv's first suggestion, ie, look in the winch mfgs tables for guidance. They will get him into the ballpark, and help him in the search for used winches of appropriate size. The issues of hardware layout, etc, are important, but it doesn't sound like he is wanting to reorganize his deck, just replace some reel type winches... a worthwhile task IMO!

Finally, for the OP: Most winch mfgs, likely all currently in business, use a simple labeling standard: the winch model number is simply the overall mechanical advantage in the lowest gear and with a ten inch handle. Ie, a Lewmar 40 has a 40:1 ratio. The Barient folks, and also the Barlows, use a different system. Here the number is related to the actual tension generated by the winch with a 10 inch handle with a 100 lb force on it, also in the lowest gear, and the result expressed in hundreds of lbs. This scheme allegedly took into account internal friction in the winch, and showed how important good internal bearings were in the design. When no one else used the system, the advantages of the Barient designs were not showcased as I think they desired!

At any rate, this means that your 27s should generate 2700 lbs tension under the standard conditions related above, but the mechanical advantage is not given, and thus it is hard to compare with models of other mfgs. Somewhere on the net there is a table of specifications for Barients, including gear ratios, but a quick search didn't turn it up. Finding it would be helpful to you...

Good luck, and do remember that Barients were viewed as the very best winches of their day, and I continue to use mine, now around thirty years of age and in good nick.

Jim

[Siberian Sea]

I have Barient winches on my boat and have never had one issue. Although at this time I'm sailing the South Pacific I have spent most of my days in Lat higher then 50 so my gear has a strong workout. Yes, as others have said Anderson's are nice but in my opinion the older Barients are a bit better. When you look at your number 27's you will see they are about the same size of what Anderson and other call a 45. I have 27 and 32's self tailing for my 40ft vessel. Barient used to me made in America and was bought by an Austrailian company but fell bankrupt. This had nothing to do with Barient but no matter Barient was lost. All service parts can still be bought but in 40,000 miles of sailing the only thing I've had to do is clean, inspect and grease. Mine are aluminum but you can find stainless ones if that's your desire. Also, the tailing winch jaws are metal not cheap plastic.

[Greg Mason]

I agree with the uncivilized approach, when we sailed the south pacific, self tailing allows one hand for the boat. We over powered by adding a foresail, using the current main winches for that, and upsizing for new main winches. Consider that this change will likely be for a long time, so choose wisely. We chose Andersen for the upgrade, never had an issue.

[Joyful Noise]

I have a pair of Barient 27s on my 1979 Shannon 38 and purchased 2 kits from Winch Mate to make self tailers out of them. It was an easy retrofit and makes handling my 19,000 lb. boat easier for an older sailor.

[Joyful Noise]

I also have an Anderson 40 electric winch new in a box that I bought but decided against using (Defender is selling the compact model for $4,977) and a pair of non-selftailing 2-speed Lewmar 40s and a pair of 3-speed Lewmar 44s any or all of which I am happy to sell for a reasonable price

[Suijin]

There is absolutely nothing that ruins sailing as quickly and as thoroughly as a boat with undersized winches. It turns it into a grind, literally. I would absolutely go with two speed winches for halyards and reefing lines. You'll appreciate it when the wind is up.

As for sizing, go with Uncivilized's resources. Probably you will need your sail area for both sails to calculate correctly, not sure.

Be careful buying used winches, as it can be pennywise and pound foolish. Barient winches are getting a bit harder to find parts for these days.

If you do buy used winches, the first thing you should do is strip them down and clean and service them, at the very least changing the springs and while you're at it the pawls too. It's cheap and good insurance.

And stripping them down is a good education in how they are put together and function. A few years ago I was on someone's boat offshore in a squall and during reefing the main halyard to a bad overwrap. Another crew member took the winch apart to get the tailer off and then did not know that the main spindle had to be lifted for the keys to fit back in to get it back together. Not a tactic for dealing with an override to begin with and not a great time to be confronted with ignorance about winch assembly.

[sailingunity]

Thanks everyone for the excellent winch advice. Sorry for the delay replying, we are dealing with Hurricane Harvey right now!

Ok, so the number on the winch has to do with the ratio, finding the right size (i.e. base size that will fit on my existing mounting base) is unrelated to that number then.

I've also heard that about Anderson winches (in fact the cruiser I got these from had just upgraded to Andersons). As some of you alluded to I'm mostly interested in seeing what I can trade these for, so a high price tag is out of the equation!

[Lambretta]

Originally Posted by stnick

I like and use Anderson ST 2 speed Hard to find a better made winch 316 SS !
Ill see if i can find the site i used to buy them half price..

Please post .....as I am most interested in this .......... I am in the process of ordering 7 winches and Anderson is my first choice.

Thanks

[Joyful Noise]

The numbers on winches are not necessarily consistent across brands. For example, a Barient 27 is slightly more powerful than a Lewmar or Anderson 40.

[Matt Johnson]

Best comparison I've found for winches:

http://l-36.com/compare.php

Matt