Were classic cruisers built with short masts?

[model 10]

That boat is going to need something to get going. A big modern head sail of some sort on a bowsprit.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Personally I wouldn't buy the boat without having a good discussion with Perry about it first. If you do, get back to us and let us know what he says, I'm really curious.

I'm with you 100% on that. Everyone's "back of the envelope" comments about the consequences (or lack of same) of turning a cutter rigged cruising sailboat into a masthead rig raise nothing but more questions IMO.

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Actually, that isn't such a common thing. Most modern boats (say post 1975) will have their mast length considerably longer than LOA. Example: my boat is ~46 feet LOA and the mast is about 70 feet long. My previous boat was 36 feet LOA and the mast was nearly 50 feet long. These were both keel stepped masts on performance oriented boats, but take the ubiquitous Catalina 30, where the LOA is 30 feet and the mast lenght is bout 40 feet (deck stepped). Most other current boats will echo this trend.

Your boat, I suspect, is a kinda anomaly, with a deck stepped mast and the hull length extended on both ends with extra spars. Nothing wrong with this design, but it isn't all that common these days.

Jim

I guess you missed my basic question Jim; I queried how the N/A determines the height of a mast for any given design??? . . . followed by my personal observance that many boats in my particular area have masts of similar height to the boat length itself.
Yes, I'm also aware some have spars of much more height, but I suspect they are probably much bigger boats than those similar to my boat length. In fact, I suggest most boats to 30' will have a spar height close to boat length, plus maybe up to another 4 or 5 feet max. These would be boats from the 60's & 70's. mostly Weekender's; Day-sailer's. & Club-racer's.
Basically, I'm just curious to learn how a spar length is determined for any boat.
I can remember back to pre-war (wwii) … I was 7y.o. … when huge J-Class yachts owned by the very wealthy used to race off the coast of the Isle of Wight. Boats such as Lipton's "Shamrock" & others. The spars on thos boats were a tremendous height & they carried 100's (1000's?) of sq ft of sail … Egyptian cotton I believe . . . such a fantastic sight. And before J-Boats I believe they were even bigger & taller carrying what I would guess at as much as 5000 sq ft of canvas, incl spinnakers; although I've only seen those in Beken's awesome photo's. These older ones were mostly gaff rigged. Looks as if they had crew of around at least 50 crew men aboard.

[Jim Cate]

In fact, I suggest most boats to 30' will have a spar height close to boat length, plus maybe up to another 4 or 5 feet max. These would be boats from the 60's & 70's. mostly Weekender's; Day-sailer's. & Club-racer's.

I didn't address the question of how a designer comes to determine mast height, because I don't know the answer.

But I still don't agree with your repeated statement that " most boats to 30 feet will have a spar length close to boat length..."

The example of the Catalina 30, which surely meets your categories of Weekenders, day sailers and club racers, and stems from the early 70s is hardly unique and refutes your suggestion IMO.

But really, it matters not to the OP. His altered Baba has a taller rig than original. Several folks have postulated that it will have some horrible unbalance issues. I doubt that it will, and suggest that he sea trial it to generate some data... better fodder for decisions than poorly informed internet expertise.

The theoretical balance of CLR and CE are modulated by so many other factors that only actual sailing experience will shed useful light on the subject.

Jim

[Tayana42]

The last small boat o had was a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender, 18.5’ loa with a mast of 24’ stepped on deck. This was a very conservative CCA design from Carl Alberg in the mid 1960s. Great boat by the way. The mast was nearly 1/3 taller than the loa.

[Suijin]

I didn’t notice in the original post that the bowsprit has been removed. That’s going to have a significant impact on how the boat sails. It’s very likely going to have more weather helm. There may be other issues as the mast is in its original position and was not moved, and the original sail plan was designed as a system incorporating mast placement, keel form etc.

I mentioned earlier that Perry added a two foot bow sprit when he redesigned the Valiant 40 into the 42 (they share the same hull mold). When he did so he moved the mast forward, lengthened it, and also changed the fin keel shape. Change one thing and you have to adjust other parameters as well.

Bob can be a bit crotchety and you’d probably have better luck posting your question on the Sailing Anarchy forum, which he frequents almost daily, than trying to contact him by email or phone.

Of course you could just take the boat for a sail but you won’t get a feel for the impact of the rig change in a wide range of conditions. Would suck to buy the boat and later find out she’s a squirrely nightmare in a big following sea, for example.

[Stu Jackson]

My mast height off the water is 55 feet, keel stepped, on a 34 foot boat. Since it's keel stepped one could say that the base is even lower than the actual waterline, but that's only a few feet at most. We had the same relative proportions on our 25 and 22. It could be that older 60&70s boats had shorter rigs, not so much anymore.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

But really, it matters not to the OP. His altered Baba has a taller rig than original. Several folks have postulated that it will have some horrible unbalance issues. I doubt that it will, and suggest that he sea trial it to generate some data... better fodder for decisions than poorly informed internet expertise.

What should matter is that someone converted a cutter rigged cruising sailboat to a taller sloop rig. Will that create "horrible imbalance issues" or even just plain old ordinary imbalance issues? I don't know, and I can't imagine how you would know either. If the OP were an expert at this, I presume he would not be asking the question. My answer, and the answer of several others, is to discuss this with Robert Perry (the designer). Seems like good advice and I can't imagine why you would argue against it.

[Cheechako]

You need to know the boom length, if the main has a roach or was it removed? etc. Robt Perry can't tell you without knowing the mods. Measure the sail or boom. You can lay out the difference on the drawing readily yourself and see if there is any significant change.

[Cheechako]

Just a few of the boats that have optional tall rigs without changing mast location:
Seafarer 31
Catalina 27-42
Some Hunters
Bayield
Pearson
Oday
Ranger
Tartan
Passport
Jeanneau
Morris
Dufour

[Don C L]

Yeah it's not just raising the mast, its the shortening the "J" length, the jib foot, in combination with mast height going up, that I am wondering about. It is now such a high aspect rig on a low aspect hull. I wonder how much windward advantage there will really be and how much horsepower is actually being lost. I don't know, but despite its classic hull design, the rig already looked pretty high aspect to my eye, but I ain't no N/A.

[KP44]

It depends upon the designer and the builder. My Kelley-Peterson was designed as a fast, comfortable, moderately heavy cruising sailboat. It has a 60' cutter rig for a 45', 16 ton boat. It sails upwind and can consistently do 150 nm days.
By today's standards, we have a heavy boat. To me, that means a sea-kindly ride.
There are others. I was next to a C&C 46 (I think) at a marina and it was just as tall.

[MJH]

Some boat owners do some stupid things...this sounds like one of them; ask him what Woodlawn Naval Architecture class he graduated in. I personally don't like bowsprits but would never do what he did...he can't be much of a sailor to destroy a Bob Perry design like that. I don't hold with owners that make significant changes to a designer's work.

There are thousands of boats out there for sale...I would walk away for no other reason than the money to correct the whole damn thing and secondly, if you don't correct it, what is the next buyer going to think? Sailing offshore...Keep the original design!

If you are set on buying the boat, at the very least contact Bob Perry and ask him what he thinks about what the owner has done and his recommendations to correct it.

My last thought: Walking into this problem is a hell of a way to start sailing career. Think again.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ Mike

[sailorladd]

I built Hartley Tasman (New Zealand design) back in the seventies, and she was designed with a mast height of 34 feet, a bowsprit was also designed as part of the rig....

years later I had to build another mast due to dry rot and wear and tear and I decided to heighten it to 38 feet, and I kept the bowsprit, as I cannot imagine my boat without it ...I can certainly feel the difference, in the overall performance to windward as well as all points of sail.

She is cutter rigged, meaning she has two headsails. and these provide a pretty powerful combination for upwind sailing.... if the the wind freshens too much I simply drop the inner staysail, which is self tacking and has a boom and sheet horse and rail. My boat was used primarily as a cruiser and I sailed around the world with this rig and would not change it now She is forty years old and going strong. It depends also on what you intend doing with a yacht? Sailing around the buoys on a Sunday, or extended off shore cruising...There are no two boats alike, so that has to be built into the equation as well...You will certainly feel the extra two feet, but a bowsprit is a great part of a boats rig and provides options for the long distance cruiser...BTW The most of my cruising was done with the shorter mast and I feel in retrospect it was by far the safer mast out at sea when and if you find yourself single handing, or faced with over powering sudden squalls etc...good luck!

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by sailorladd

BTW The most of my cruising was done with the shorter mast and I feel in retrospect it was by far the safer mast out at sea when and if you find yourself single handing, or faced with over powering sudden squalls etc...good luck!

Yeah that is my thought as well, and something not mentioned is the effect of the added weight farther aloft on the calculations which your comment on the safety of it for sailing singlehanded offshore suggests.