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Old 15-06-2020, 09:17   #91
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
OK, so looking at various photos for examples, I came up with this:


Attachment 216620


Relevant because of the pole setup. My pole is actually longer and will extend somewhat over the bow pulpit. The pole here is set to WINDWARD of the inner forestay -- isn't the guy under huge stress? And working at an angle which would magnify the forces? I shudder to think what would happen if that guy let loose and the pole slammed into the inner forestay.


Is the tackline attached to the pole, or to the tack?


I guess they wouldn't want to have the pole to leeward of the inner forestay because it would interfere with use of the staysail. My staysail is not so big that I think I would bother with it in light air. It would be a rounding error of power compared to a 200m2 assy so just needless complication, no?


Obviously I'm going to need more cordage. Maybe I could use jib sheets as sheet and guy -- 14mm racing dyneema. Or maybe I need to have new ones made up, maybe out of 12mm racing dyneema, maybe make up long leaders out of single braid (you can see the leaders in the photo, a couple meters worth).
In this photo the boat is using a “Reaching Strut”. It is attached to the side of the mast and lashed to the forward shrewd forward of it. The out board end has a roller on it. The guy passes from the tack through the pole through the strut and to the aft block. This is what helps with the angle of the guy.

Another thing you may want to consider is a Reflex Furling unit from Harken. You can roll the assy up instead of using the sock. Better flying and easier to put and down.

I also highly recommend you have Barber Haulers mid ship. These make it easy to control the twist of the leach. This is the way my last race boat was setup and I will do the same on my cruising boat.
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Old 15-06-2020, 11:45   #92
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happ View Post
In this photo the boat is using a “Reaching Strut”. It is attached to the side of the mast and lashed to the forward shrewd forward of it. The out board end has a roller on it. The guy passes from the tack through the pole through the strut and to the aft block. This is what helps with the angle of the guy.

Another thing you may want to consider is a Reflex Furling unit from Harken. You can roll the assy up instead of using the sock. Better flying and easier to put and down.

I also highly recommend you have Barber Haulers mid ship. These make it easy to control the twist of the leach. This is the way my last race boat was setup and I will do the same on my cruising boat.

Thanks! All good advice. I was counting on needing a barber hauler on the sheet -- how else to adjust sheeting angle?
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Old 15-06-2020, 11:46   #93
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

Anybody know whether the Selden 30 mm RCB track is compatible with other 30mm RCB cars, like these:



https://www.rigrite.com/Spars/SparPa...innaker%20Cars
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Old 29-06-2020, 22:36   #94
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

In case anyone is interested in how this all turned out.

We did not finish the race; we had to resign after about 600 miles due to sick crewman.

However, not before 24 hours of running under the A2 -- and it was brilliant!! We did not receive our snuffer in time so we launched and retrieved it the old fashioned way, and in the light wind we had, it was surprisingly easy -- just took a reasonable number of hands on deck.

The kite was probably a little small for our boat -- about 200m2 -- but was amazingly effective. We moved up the fleet on the downwind part, and were about to take 9th overall, 5th among the monohulls, when we had to quit.

The extra long pole was especially brilliant as we were able to pull the tack around and sail effectively from 90 or even higher, to DDW. DDW in light wind was not effective compared to heading up 20 degrees. The main interfered with the kite DDW and we were better off just taking it away, but at 160 or so true wind angle we were flying, with both sails working and with a lot of apparent wind effect.

In light wind with the kite it was all about apparent wind -- a whole new kind of sailing for me. Tremendous fun.

We enjoyed it so much that we already signed up for next year. I am thinking about taking the boat back to Cowes in October and maybe do a couple of the RORC races the following spring. Meanwhile put together just the right crew and practice, practice, practice.

Thanks to all for all the great advice and help -- it was really useful, and in the event, it all worked! We didn't have the slightest problem; using the A2 was much easier than I expected. Just requires a few people on deck.


The pole was a bit of a faff -- it required a jockey pole when reaching, so quite a lot of complexity. But nothing we couldn't do, working systematically. Even jibing wasn't all that bad -- we took down the kite into the bag, then flipped everything around to the other side, jibe the main, re-hoist the kite. Maybe 15 minutes, while the mainsail continued to drive the boat, so we didn't lose all that much time. For a 900 mile race it was quite ok.


Another thing (among the many things) we learned -- for a race over this kind of distance, endurance is a really big deal. CRM, where I failed, is key -- keeping everyone healthy and well fed and sleeping enough. Water supply is key. We had 1000 liters but a water maker would have been really much better. Better organized and more structured meals.



And tactics/weather routing remains a black box to me. I used OpenCPN's weather routing plug-in, but it didn't work properly as I didn't have accurate polars for my boat. I made some serious tactical mistakes due to believing the computer over my gut. Part of what we will do this year in practice is put together really good polars.
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Old 30-06-2020, 04:20   #95
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
We did not receive our snuffer in time so we launched and retrieved it the old fashioned way, and in the light wind we had, it was surprisingly easy -- just took a reasonable number of hands on deck.
With practice this gets easier and faster. Singlehanded is in reach with an autopilot (most races don't let you use the a/p), otherwise two people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
The kite was probably a little small for our boat -- about 200m2 -- but was amazingly effective.
A little small is good for offshore. As seas build it's too easy to sail out from under your wind with a bigger sail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Another thing (among the many things) we learned -- for a race over this kind of distance, endurance is a really big deal. CRM, where I failed, is key -- keeping everyone healthy and well fed and sleeping enough. Water supply is key. We had 1000 liters but a water maker would have been really much better. Better organized and more structured meals.
Water output, not just input. Keep an eye out for crew who aren't using the head. I don't personally check for color but part of crew meeting before departure is to ask crew to watch urine color. Everyone should have their own water bottle. I particularly like the Nalgene Tritan On The Fly. You can open and close it one handed and with the clip in place--also a one-handed operation--you can drop kick it across the cockpit without a leak. For coffee, tea, and broth I like the [url=https://www.amazon.com/Contigo-AUTOSEAL-Vaccuum-Insulated-Stainless-Travel/dp/B00HZI5XBG]Contigo Autoseal West Loop. Also one-handed operation and dripless when knocked about.

I've held forth about organized and structured meals before and likely will again. Most but not all are omnivorous. One key element is consistency. I schedule meals for 0800, 1200, 1800, and midnights. That gets me three change of watch and dinner/supper as a crew meeting opportunity. I have layers of structure *grin* and flexibility for weather. Forgive me for using meats as examples. If I'm making chicken for dinner I'll cook two to three times as much as needed. Some extra chicken becomes a chicken salad for a lunch. The rest might be chicken tikka masala for a dinner. This ripples through your meal plan and thus provisioning and also outfit (containers for storage). The first dinner might be chicken and rice with steamed broccoli with leftover rice for the chicken tikka masala (watch food safety issues with leftover rice). Leftover broccoli could go in the chicken salad. Stuffed roast pork loin could have extras sliced thin in sandwiches and then shredded with bottled barbecue sauce. When you make pasta make a lot so you have leftovers for a pasta salad. While you're cooking pasta you might as well hard cook eggs at the same time in the same water. Twelve minutes is twelve minutes.

Remember that people eat, especially snacking, as much from boredom as hunger. Snacks like oranges and hard cooked eggs are good choices. I keep a snack bag. With big crews and long trips I have deep stores for the snack bag and meter foods in. Metering is especially important for chocolate. *grin* I keep snacks that have to be refrigerated at the top of the fridge in order to be easily accessible and to keep crew from rummaging through my fridge.

Midnights are usually self serve. Remember your 12-4 watch might not wake up for breakfast.

I usually alternate easy/self-serve breakfasts (yogurt, muffins, cereal) with cooked. Days with easy breakfasts have a big dinner. Big breakfast days have dinner that is one of the second or third time we've seen something (like the tikka example above). Any time I have a few minutes and the inclination I make green salad ahead. With care and selection of ingredients it will last two or three days up to five.

You always have to work around what you have to work with. Two burners or three or four? One for some of you electric galley people. *grin* Oven? Rail-mounted grill?

When conditions are light you can prep ahead. You can hand things up to the watch: peel potatoes, peel carrots, even wash celery or leeks. I don't usually delegate knife work - I'm fussy and pretty fast. I have had some owners and crew who originally wanted sailing and systems coaching and ended up spending a lot of time in the galley with me. You can talk about watermakers while you julienne a carrot.

When things get really light I'll do a special dinner complete with garnish.

I'll share my provisioning lists with you @Dockhead if that helps.
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Old 30-06-2020, 06:54   #96
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
In case anyone is interested in how this all turned out.

We did not finish the race; we had to resign after about 600 miles due to sick crewman.

However, not before 24 hours of running under the A2 -- and it was brilliant!! We did not receive our snuffer in time so we launched and retrieved it the old fashioned way, and in the light wind we had, it was surprisingly easy -- just took a reasonable number of hands on deck.

The kite was probably a little small for our boat -- about 200m2 -- but was amazingly effective. We moved up the fleet on the downwind part, and were about to take 9th overall, 5th among the monohulls, when we had to quit.

The extra long pole was especially brilliant as we were able to pull the tack around and sail effectively from 90 or even higher, to DDW. DDW in light wind was not effective compared to heading up 20 degrees. The main interfered with the kite DDW and we were better off just taking it away, but at 160 or so true wind angle we were flying, with both sails working and with a lot of apparent wind effect.

In light wind with the kite it was all about apparent wind -- a whole new kind of sailing for me. Tremendous fun.

We enjoyed it so much that we already signed up for next year. I am thinking about taking the boat back to Cowes in October and maybe do a couple of the RORC races the following spring. Meanwhile put together just the right crew and practice, practice, practice.

Thanks to all for all the great advice and help -- it was really useful, and in the event, it all worked! We didn't have the slightest problem; using the A2 was much easier than I expected. Just requires a few people on deck.


The pole was a bit of a faff -- it required a jockey pole when reaching, so quite a lot of complexity. But nothing we couldn't do, working systematically. Even jibing wasn't all that bad -- we took down the kite into the bag, then flipped everything around to the other side, jibe the main, re-hoist the kite. Maybe 15 minutes, while the mainsail continued to drive the boat, so we didn't lose all that much time. For a 900 mile race it was quite ok.


Another thing (among the many things) we learned -- for a race over this kind of distance, endurance is a really big deal. CRM, where I failed, is key -- keeping everyone healthy and well fed and sleeping enough. Water supply is key. We had 1000 liters but a water maker would have been really much better. Better organized and more structured meals.



And tactics/weather routing remains a black box to me. I used OpenCPN's weather routing plug-in, but it didn't work properly as I didn't have accurate polars for my boat. I made some serious tactical mistakes due to believing the computer over my gut. Part of what we will do this year in practice is put together really good polars.
I am particularly happy that you found this to be a good experience. Often people just don't have fun racing and don't want to do it again, but it builds skills and confidence in ways that are hard to match, so if you like it, and are joining the fold, that's great.

Also pleased that you found it relatively easy to set and dowse without the sock. After that experience you might not even use the sock when you have it. I hope other people will take the chance and try spinnaker sailing w/o the sock. It's simpler and just as easy. (possible with one person on the foredeck but easier with more).

Now you need to work out how to jibe that sucker without taking it down. The steps are outlined many places, and when it works, it is a thing of beauty. (You still have to remove tack from the pole and shift the pole separately).

We stopped using a jockey pole many years ago. We found that leading the guy through a block at max beam works just as well.

Well done! And don't look back.
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Old 30-06-2020, 12:32   #97
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

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Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
I am particularly happy that you found this to be a good experience. Often people just don't have fun racing and don't want to do it again, but it builds skills and confidence in ways that are hard to match, so if you like it, and are joining the fold, that's great. . . .

Thank you! Yes, getting 600 miles somewhere, in light wind, or dead calm, tacking upwind, or a howling gale, whatever nature throws at you, without using the engine -- yes, that "builds skills and confidence", indeed it does. It was an uber-cool experience. And sailing under spinnaker is a whole different kind of sailing. We are definitely hooked. Thanks to you and JMH2002 and Auspicious and all the rest who helped with great advice.


Crew are now demanding however that we add a Code 0 to the sail wardrobe. That will make 6 sails on board without spares. But I guess they're right . . .
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Old 30-06-2020, 13:12   #98
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Re: Using an Assy Spinnaker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Thank you! Yes, getting 600 miles somewhere, in light wind, or dead calm, tacking upwind, or a howling gale, whatever nature throws at you, without using the engine -- yes, that "builds skills and confidence", indeed it does. It was an uber-cool experience. And sailing under spinnaker is a whole different kind of sailing. We are definitely hooked. Thanks to you and JMH2002 and Auspicious and all the rest who helped with great advice.


Crew are now demanding however that we add a Code 0 to the sail wardrobe. That will make 6 sails on board without spares. But I guess they're right . . .
No, I think they are not right.

Look, a code zero is the "cool" thing that everyone thinks their owner should buy (because all the cool new race boats have one).

However, the original purpose of those code zero sails was to provide close reaching power for boats which were unable to set a large genoa or to provide ability to sail closer to the wind in spinnaker conditions.

Example: a modern fractional rigged boat with a wide shroud base and non-overlapping headsails. These boats are underpowered on close reaches and upwind in light air. But due to the shroud base they cannot set a genoa, which is the most useful sail for upwind in the light stuff.

The sailmaking companies developed a genoa-like sail which measures as a spinnaker (therefore no penalty as a large jib) and can be hoisted on a roller on a prod ahead of the headstay and sheeted in fairly close and the call them a code zero. Otherwise they called nylon sails which were flatter than a normal asymmetrical spinnaker a code zero, which has a very narrow range of wind angles where it is beneficial. I can hardly imagine that you'd have enough use for either the laminated one on the top down furler or the nylon one to justify the purchase.

But, if your boat can carry an overlapping genoa it is far better for light air upwind work and equally as good on light (or moderate) air close reaching. There is no advantage to a code zero for a boat which can carry a genoa.

So, if you want to improve your performance, (and lighten your wallet) buy a 150% carbon genoa. You will smoke most boats upwind, and you will be equally as fast as the boats with code zeros with that sail in the close reaching conditions, and when you can fly it, shift to the A2.

I have been racing locally for a few years against a much newer Hanse 44 in full race trim owned and helmed by a former Canadian National Champion, and coached on board by a very talented North sails rep. (and I might add, they DO NOT live aboard, Ha!).

They rate 30 seconds a mile faster and always beat me to the finish line but sometimes I correct out and win. However, in the light air conditions that we often have in our races I can always beat them to the first (upwind) mark because they do not have a genoa, cannot fit a genoa, and I do. It aggravated them for years. of course once the wind comes up and they are in the range for their blade, then game over, they are faster.

So last year the North Sails guy convinced them to get a 3di Raw code zero on a top down furler (all their for and aft sails are North 3di Raw). I watched them struggle to use it. Snarls and fowl ups every time, and it go so that I was thrilled to see them put it up. It meant that I could pass them while they were fighting it.

Finally they got so they could fly it without problems, then we both realized it was not an upwind sail. On the close reaches they are fast, but otherwise, it was not worth it.

So get a genoa if you don't have one already.

AND, if you really need a flat spinnaker for that close reaching, get an A3.
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